Forgivness in Christianity

In The Lord’s Prayer, to forgive others’ trespasses is prerequisite to the forgiveness of our own. It is the true meaning of charity, for it requires us to give up ourselves; which is the attribute of selflessness, the rarest of all virtues. Nothing is more difficult, and few can make the sacrifice. To truly forgive someone is to put others before yourself despite all the enmity. In this world, to grant pardon is the prerogative of Princes. Beyond the pale of temporal power, to possess a forgiving nature is the mark of magnanimity, which is the principal characteristic of a superior person. And, for us lesser mortals, to be able to shrug off offenses would make one, if not a philosopher, at least a better man.

Do others admire you for what you give, or for who you are? I will guarantee it is always the latter. But if you are sacrificing yourself constantly before others, there is nothing of yourself to give - for you've given it up as unimportant. In this last example, your 'giving' is more that of an automaton, rather than a fully conscious and genuine human being.

True forgiveness - forgiveness without any strings attached, finds it's foundation in a knowledge and deep contentment of self. When you truly love yourself, compassion comes so much more easily, empathy is easier, conflict is lessened, fears subside, happiness increases, etc.

When you are true to yourself, you can then be genuinely and fully true to others. Being true to yourself is not possible if you have a blanket value of 'put others before yourself'.

It's a deception that '100% selflessness' is good, and it is quite impossible for anyone to be so, and still be human.

god forgives only if you are not deceptive and you really mean it....also if you will try your best not to do it again.....god reads hearts and doesnt have errors in his judgement like humans do....so he can tell if you are repentant of or not

Do others admire you for what you give, or for who you are? I will guarantee it is always the latter. But if you are sacrificing yourself constantly before others, there is nothing of yourself to give - for you've given it up as unimportant. In this last example, your 'giving' is more that of an automaton, rather than a fully conscious and genuine human being.

True forgiveness - forgiveness without any strings attached, finds it's foundation in a knowledge and deep contentment of self. When you truly love yourself, compassion comes so much more easily, empathy is easier, conflict is lessened, fears subside, happiness increases, etc.

When you are true to yourself, you can then be genuinely and fully true to others. Being true to yourself is not possible if you have a blanket value of
'put others before yourself'.

It's a deception that '100% selflessness' is good, and it is quite impossible for anyone to be so, and still be human.


URL: http://able2know.org/reply/post-4616632

can't it be both? what you give AND who you are as a person? i disagree on the next comment. if your constantly giving yourself to everyone...you truly are atleast in a non believers eyes giving EVERYTHING you ever have in your only life....we as believers are not saying it's not important...rather we are saying by Atheistic views it is all we have and will ever know...how can anyone by your own views be more devouted to human life than one who gives everything they have in there own one life to others be a true sign of devoution to the highest regard? yes, but then there comes a point by your views were you love yourself too much...if thats the case i would rather empty myself my one and only life according to your views...than search my whole life to love myself and not show signs of loving another...because by doing this all you really show is in the end all you really valued was you and what You think is right....where as if you constantly empty yourself even if you truly dont love yourself to the highest regard, if nothing else all you really did was atleast cherish others whatever they do. and constantly help to better others. you have to find yourself and THEN empty yourself to others..which is exactly what Christ did...how then in an atheistic view is this not an ultimate sacrifice to the highest regard proving Jesus if he exhisted was good for the earth? rather than one who would lead millions and millions astray as to beliefs in things that will never exhist?

Yes, although I would rephrase this to “You can be yourself AND give”. This way your giving is always guaranteed to be genuine, heartfelt, and just you..
No – if you are true to yourself, it is almost impossible to love yourself too much. With truth/consistency comes honesty (or maybe honesty comes first) : ie. part of being true to yourself is self-honesty. How is it possible to think you are better than others if you have self-honesty?


And if you don’t know yourself, then what you think is right could easily be wrong (for you).

I think you will find that most Atheists, if they know the story of Jesus, admire the story - and may even find it inspiring. Jesus’ story itself, barely has any tennants of religion attached to it, and a lot of goodness. I don't think I've ever actually seen an atheist attack the nature of the story of Jesus.

Yes, although I would rephrase this to “You can be yourself AND give”. This way your giving is always guaranteed to be genuine, heartfelt, and just you..

I agree with this...and will rephrase, ..take care of yourself...then empty what you have or what you know to others...

No – if you are true to yourself, it is almost impossible to love yourself too much. With truth/consistency comes honesty (or maybe honesty comes first) : ie. part of being true to yourself is self-honesty. How is it possible to think you are better than others if you have self-honesty?

I agree again but how many people in the world are content or fulfilled with themselves, but truly have no wisdom? because all they ever knew or accepted was what THEY believed was the right thing to do? self honesty, to me must come from one who is above mortals...where as he is ALWAYS right and can ALWAYS teach and ALWAYS shows to do good things...this theory of your will at some point always be flawed in humans doing it or showing it only toward other humans...for we ALL are hypocrites at some point in our lives...or break our own views or beliefs at some point..to the correct code of conduct that we except...and if we have different views and we disagree on certain things...how then are we both being correct? and both being self honest? unless there again is a need for a savior to judge right among wrongs, in a supernatural way that we (Humans) don't or can't grasp due to our own selfishness? or just flat out lack of understanding, accepting, or reasoning etc...

And if you don’t know yourself, then what you think is right could easily be wrong (for you).

just as much as not emptying yourself for others without trust in them, and a good attitude or encouragement, on our own parts as to what we are in fact giving up... to a degree, could be viewed as selfishness or self centeredness, or one dimensional..on ones behalf...

then in an atheistic view is this not an ultimate sacrifice to the highest regard proving Jesus if he exhisted was good for the earth?


I think you will find that most Atheists, if they know the story of Jesus, admire the story - and may even find it inspiring. Jesus’ story itself, barely has any tennants of religion attached to it, and a lot of goodness. I don't think I've ever actually seen an atheist attack the nature of the story of Jesus.

I honestly did not know and even except this point of view from an atheist, and I thank you for opening my eyes to it!...I honestly have seen different from ones who i know who claim to be atheist...just as how you claim to hear or see things from ones who claim to be true Christians...but are not really doing what is called...therefore, giving true believes a bad name, and jading the non believers father away...

sorry i reposted to update some things....

Yes, although I would rephrase this to “You can be yourself AND give”. This way your giving is always guaranteed to be genuine, heartfelt, and just you..

I agree with this...and will rephrase, ..take care of yourself...then empty what you have or what you know to others...

No – if you are true to yourself, it is almost impossible to love yourself too much. With truth/consistency comes honesty (or maybe honesty comes first) : ie. part of being true to yourself is self-honesty. How is it possible to think you are better than others if you have self-honesty?

I agree again but how many people in the world are content or fulfilled with themselves, but truly have no wisdom? because all they ever knew or accepted was what THEY believed was the right thing to do? self honesty, to me must come from one who is above mortals...where as he is ALWAYS right and can ALWAYS teach and ALWAYS shows to do good things...this theory of yours will at some point always be flawed in humans doing it or showing it only toward other humans. or humans trying to find themselves only by looking in and not looking in and looking up...for we ALL are hypocrites at some point in our lives...or break our own views or beliefs at some point..to the correct code of conduct that we except...and if we have different views and we disagree on certain things...how then are we both being correct? and both being self honest? unless there again is a need for a savior to judge right among wrongs, in a supernatural way that we (Humans) don't or can't grasp due to our own selfishness? or just flat out lack of understanding, accepting, or poor reasoning etc...

And if you don’t know yourself, then what you think is right could easily be wrong (for you).

just as much as not emptying yourself for others without trust in them and also the belief that God will in fact correct our faults when we seek Him, and a good attitude or encouragement, on our own parts as to what we are in fact giving up... to a degree, could be viewed as selfishness or self centeredness, or one dimensional..on ones behalf...

then in an atheistic view is this not an ultimate sacrifice to the highest regard proving Jesus if he exhisted was good for the earth?


I think you will find that most Atheists, if they know the story of Jesus, admire the story - and may even find it inspiring. Jesus’ story itself, barely has any tennants of religion attached to it, and a lot of goodness. I don't think I've ever actually seen an atheist attack the nature of the story of Jesus.

I honestly did not know and even except this point of view from an atheist, and I thank you for opening my eyes to it!...I honestly have seen different from ones who i know who claim to be atheist...just as how you claim to hear or see things from ones who claim to be true Christians...but are not really doing what is called...therefore, giving true believes a bad name, and jading the non believers father away...




URL: http://able2know.org/topic/171698-3#post-4666287

I by the way, am not an Atheist - I would probably be classed as Agnostic, although a rather pragmatic one. I truly like the idea of a God, but his existance or not is not of great concern to me. I like both theists and atheists, but not the more rabid of them (who are invariably rude and condescending on both sides)


Alright, but can I ask – how has that worked for you so far? The thing is – it doesn’t matter if we are flawed...engaging in self honesty brings a sense of peace and self worth. It leads you take complete responsibility for your life and for who you are - It brings a sense of your place in the world, and what you can achieve. It brings greater awareness of the effects of your actions on yourself and others. It lessens negative emotions when you are verbally ‘attacked’, and leads you to ‘attack’ others less. It leads you to stand up for yourself, even as your attitudes start realigning, and your acceptance of others for who they are (warts and all) grows.

Self honesty is not about getting it right the first time, because in the first instance it is barely possible for a starter to recognise their own internal signs of self deception. The path to self-honesty is as much about learning about those internal signs and what they mean, as it is about ‘being honest’ about the major things that you fear.

Someone ‘showing you what is right’ would not achieve as much because the understanding would be lacking, and the recognition of the internal signs would be lacking, and the value placed on it would be lacking (because you didn’t work for it).

Why not think of it this way – engage on a path of self discovery and self honesty, and it is god who would be guiding you anyway – he doesn’t want to give you the easy answers, for that would not work so well, but he will guide you as you truly seek to discover yourself.


Are you not familiar with Paul in Romans were he said ‘for those who believe it is wrong to eat meat, it is wrong, and for those who think all things a blessed by god, it is good to eat meat’ (or something along that line of thought). Is it a sin to insult a person? In Arabic societies it is an insult to show the soles of your feet to your host. Now if you were in an Arabs house and without knowing this put your feet up on a footstool and showed him the soles of your feet – would you be bad? Or would what was right for you be wrong for him? Do you really think God would want to judge the ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ of such a situation?

When a Christian claims to be "saved" they are constantly reminded by their church that they have to keep proving they are saved by their behavior. So the incentive / reward system is still in place, even if they believe in the "once saved, always saved" doctrine.
Other Christians are constantly evaluating each other.
They look at each other. Judge their friends at church based on whether they say "Amen" at the right time in the sermon. Or whether they are not drinking or fooling around.
Unfortunately, this is all based on fear.
But despite the way fear and reward are emphasized in Christianity and other religions, there are people who come to a point in their faith where they see the joy of knowing God, the dharma, or a way of life that creates a sense of awe and reverence.
I sincerely believe that people are not all closet rapists and murderers who control themselves just because they think they will be punished. Generally, people recognize that there is good and bad behavior and once they sort out their major problems, they will seek a way to be good. Maybe it happens over several lifetimes. If everyone on earth is sort of being reformed, then we're all on this journey of repentance and learning to be better.

Why not think of it this way – engage on a path of self discovery and self honesty, and it is god who would be guiding you anyway – he doesn’t want to give you the easy answers, for that would not work so well, but he will guide you as you truly seek to discover yourself.

I personally have and currently am engaging in a path of self discovery and self honesty....and by God guiding me as you say (which he is btw) I find that in finding myself, REQUIRES me to ALWAYS be one with him...and when i am apart from God (sinning) I find out the HARD way I AM happier following God...and that he WAS AND IS RIGHT EVERY TIME, that I should have followed all the time to begin with...just like he says...and trying to find self discovery WITHOUT him NEVER COMPLETES me...

Are you not familiar with Paul in Romans were he said ‘for those who believe it is wrong to eat meat, it is wrong, and for those who think all things a blessed by god, it is good to eat meat’ (or something along that line of thought). Is it a sin to insult a person? In Arabic societies it is an insult to show the soles of your feet to your host. Now if you were in an Arabs house and without knowing this put your feet up on a footstool and showed him the soles of your feet – would you be bad? Or would what was right for you be wrong for him? Do you really think God would want to judge the ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ of such a situation?

It all depends on the degree of what one calls an insult, to me if you KNOW it is an insult to do something on purpose...a premetitative way of trying to hurt another. then yes, to me that is sinning...but if your ignorant to the fact(s) then by his own mouth your not guilty...until you know or learn otherwise...and then don't insult or do by your own choices decide your end result(s)

I think you may have missed the point to that part of the post, which was in relation to a question of yours 'how can two people with differences both be right' (or something to that effect)

so then my question to you is if you seek to find knowledge...and self honesty...is apart of both of those things to you finding out others beliefs in order to be knowledgable and self honest with your self?? because if it is this is the way i see it...to clarify for both nonbelievers and believers...or ones for the most part seek to find knowledge, and ones who seek to find wisdom...

...if you strive to find knowledge, and others strive to find wisdom...then you will be judged on how many times you failed to abide by the knowledge you already knew and understand...So as a non believer...what ever knowledge you except and understand, ANY time you KNOWINGLY did the opposite, to hurt someone you are guilty...if you were not in fact aware then you are not guilty...if I as A Believer I find wisdom and then follow God, I am subject to all the Laws are rules God has set down...and EACH and EVERY time I went against God...knowingly is were I AM AT FAULT...therefor, the 2 most important commandments put us believers and non believers on the same plane...simply put if you don't except God, He can take that on, you personally will be judged accountable to the fact of how you were and respected other human beings...and or disrespected them personally in your actions...based on what you knew and comprehended...if you search your life to find knowledge...then you should devout your knowledge seeking to finding knowledge about other people and there beliefs...so this way right or wrong it makes you a more understanding person and if not a leader, a better man or women... also SELF honest with yourself...(Love thy neighbor as yourself)...myself as a Believer have no excuse as well, because i Don't Strive to find knowledge but rather wisdom...well I can read and see wisdom from God...( love God above all things, Most important commandment) So therefor, I should follow and Obey the words of God and each time I fall, there is no excuse for me...and if I never read certain parts of the Bible or don't comprehend just as much as one striving to find knowledge in life but not grasping something yet about others...then I personally Am NOT guilty...do you see why the Bible says to be simple minded?....the more we know the more accountable we will be simply put...

Let me help you out with your narrow minded out look.

Well since there is no after life and I am alive then this is the only opportunity that I will have to experience life. So I should make the best of it. I have absolutely no problem with the fact that when I die that is it. I think people who believe in an after life actually cheapen this life and I could ask you the same question.

If you think there is an after life that is better than this one, why don't you kill yourself, why wait if it is so much better than this existence?

A god that would hold people accountable for the actions of someone else is idiotic. A god that would hold a person accountable for a design structure that he created is idiotic. A person who willing accepts that god as being reasonable and logical is idiotic. A person who believes that a person being tortured and killed is a way to relieving others of their actions is idiotic.

Seriously a god couldn't come up with a better plan than to have someone tortured so that he will forgive the actions of others? Really? He couldn't just decide to change his mind but instead needed to have someone tortured for it? People who believe in this garbage are seriously messed up if they think that was a reasonable plan.

Let me help you out with your narrow minded out look.

I forgive you, but tell me please...does your path of self discovery and self honesty tell you it is a good thing or bad thing when you have to personally attack someone because they disagree with you???

Well since there is no after life and I am alive then this is the only opportunity that I will have to experience life. So I should make the best of it. I have absolutely no problem with the fact that when I die that is it. I think people who believe in an after life actually cheapen this life and I could ask you the same question.

Do you not feel there are people out there who don't agree with God but do whatever they FEEL is right WHENEVER THEY want and NEVER SUBMIT AT ALL? How are they making there life the BEST experience possible for them?

I live my life to the best possible experience by submitting and obeying God...making me a MORE complete person, AND understand that life ONLY gets BETTER...therefor, I don't see how I am cheapening my life on earth but only broadening it...for I try at all costs to except others and learn, no matter WHAT they believe or practice...I don't know how one could truly grasp the concept of living your life to the fullest more than that...or what oneself beliefs are, that would show true greaterness in grasping to live your life to the fullest...and showing by examples...

If you think there is an after life that is better than this one, why don't you kill yourself, why wait if it is so much better than this existence?

simply, because I can also learn and teach others why I am still here...prepairing me and making my eternal life BETTER for me, as well as them in return...

A god that would hold people accountable for the actions of someone else is idiotic. A god that would hold a person accountable for a design structure that he created is idiotic. A person who willing accepts that god as being reasonable and logical is idiotic. A person who believes that a person being tortured and killed is a way to relieving others of their actions is idiotic.

Fist no it isn't...for You may or may not be held accountable for insulting me, if I use that and then forgave you am I not doing good? or if I in return insulted you am I showing I am any better in any way?

2nd, If a God does exhist how would it be done other than his way?? for we all seem to disagree on certain things, if that's the case, again how are we all being self honest and away from self deception and not all hypocrites at some point...which we can EASILY see even if we hold our evaluations ONLY to the scriptures or doctrines WE IN FACT ACCEPT AND NOT HIS...WE ARE FLAWED....

3rd...just as much, as then as ANY person who thinks THEY are ALWAYS Logical is ILLOGICAL...

4th...not sure what you are referring to by this statement... A person who believes that a person being tortured and killed is a way to relieving others of their actions is idiotic.

A person who believes that a person being tortured and killed is a way to relieving others of their actions is idiotic.

If your in fact, referring to when I said I was a Martyr...explain how me going into the pits but not giving up on God...doesn't show faith on my part? and how it shows greatness for you who don't understand what your in for, yet won't have to endour it because of the faith of other such as in my case...I live my life in pain for the sake of saving non believers...think of how hard that truly is? compared to one thinking that they can in fact DO whatever THEY FEEL is right and have NO consuquence AT ALL??

Yes and no. It is good to find out what you can, and especially so for people you come into contact with frequently, but it is a simple fact of life that we will never know everything there is to no, and at some point in our lives we will insult someone unintentionally.

It is also not knowledge we should seek per se, but understanding. There are many very intelligent, very knowledgeable people out there with understanding that is less than their knowledge, which has obvious signs of condescension, personal attacks, snobbery, gamesmanship etc. Self honesty relies more on understanding yourself than it does on ‘knowing’ yourself. In ‘knowledge’ you can miss internal signs of fear and self deception that you would gain from understanding .


You are in error for you don’t comprehend the nature of our minds – to your way of thinking, created by God. Our mind does not function as a ‘single entity’. It has a part that deals with Logic, it has a part that deals with emotions, it has a part that deals with instincts, it has a part that deals with memories, and a part that deals with body function. These parts can actually be in competition with each other, which is why we can sometimes be in ‘two minds’. We can literaly have competing desires and competing interest.

It would be crazy to say 'I created your brain. I'm going to hold your logical brain to 100% accountability to what it knows, but I'm going to create your emotional brain so that it usually overpowers your logical brain, and I'm going to create your instinctual brain so that it overpowers both of them...then I'm going to throw in a whole heap of hormones that will in certain situations drastically effect the ability of your logical brain to function fully. Oh and I'm going to throw in a sympathetic system that helps mimic what others are feeling...so if someone is really angry with you, you will usually feel angry too...I know this comes back to your emotional brain overruling your logical brain...but even with all that thrown in by me - I'm still going to hold your logical brain 100% accountable - no mitigation allowed'.

Seriously - that would be quite nutty.

It does not make for easy decisions when you aren’t ‘In Alignment’. Psychologists generally agree that when our instinctual self calls, it wins out...when our emotional self calls – it wins out...and our ‘logic’ self usually (though not always) finishes last. Logic is where we keep all our ‘rules’. So in order for us to function as close to ‘one entity as possible’ we need to bring ourselves as much as possible into alignment / harmony.

Alignment requires thought, contemplation, and self honesty. It requires a knowledge of ones fears, and an understanding of how to identify those fears (discomfort by the way, is a mild form of fear). It requires accepting that we are not simple people, that we have internal conflict, and that there are reason for this. As you discover your inner fears and conflicts, you can negotiate most of those away...which in itself requires understanding. As your fears lessen, your emotions start disentangling, and the frequency of your logic being overruled by your emotions starts lessening, and your empathy for others starts growing.

In other words, 'simple mindedness' is achieved through a great deal of introspection, contemplation, and self honesty. Such by the way...also requires a great deal of action, and understanding of how you react to your interactions...ie an awareness of yourself as you interact (one part theory, one part action, combined to create reflection)

Yeah you trying to get all high and mighty on your BS. You basically said that atheists have no reason to live for, which is BS and you know it. So why do you keep repeating this kind of nonsense because you wish to remain willfully ignorant. That is why you are narrow minded.



Everyone does what they think is right even the those who believe that there is a god are still guessing at what they think is right. Everything we do as a human society is completely on the basis that we are doing what we think it right and yes we try and learn and progress. Just like not long ago slavery was thought to be okay, but it's difficult to find someone who still holds onto that view. Religion didn't teach not to enslave people, christianity actually promotes enslaving people.



You are only imagining that you are serving some being, but you have no basis to actually know that you are. So how is that any different than submitting to an imaginary friend? Nothing. You chose to invent this idea to make you feel better about yourself, but it does nothing more than you talking to yourself and using the same kind of guess work.



You mean trying to suppress people and dilute them and try and return them to ways that are obsolete. There is no eternal life and if there were it would be hell. I doubt you have actually thought that through. Let alone the implications and consequences of what that life would be like. You have absolutely NO idea what that includes but you could go back to guessing again. Why are you so sure that it would be in your best interest? Because you egotistically believe that it will be? Seriously?

You actually think that a god who would create this convoluted scheme and torture it's first creation and give you a life that is basically five seconds long to decide something that will last for ever and reward you with some kind of ultimate bliss? It baffles me how someone can swallow all that BS and still think they are sane.



You forgiving me for what I say to you does absolutely nothing. You can call it good if you want but it is only from your own perspective but you want to try and take a high and mighty stance from. I'll still call you delusional because that is what you are. That isn't an insult, it is the truth.



Only you wish to buy that BS, I don't. To me it sounds like a used car salesman pitch that you have converted into a mantra to make you feel better about things you can't fully grasp.



Someone the furthest from logic telling someone they can't always be logical. Well there comes a time when you actually need to know what is true and is not true, other wise the world is completely absurd. You use that fact every day except when it comes to your theology then you shut it off like it is not necessary when it is.



Someone can not take on the debt of your actions and if a god were to actually say that the actions of someone long ago are your problem then that god is not even worthy of being called a god. It is absurd.

Why do you bother? You must have an excess of energy.

Yeah you trying to get all high and mighty on your BS. You basically said that atheists have no reason to live for, which is BS and you know it. So why do you keep repeating this kind of nonsense because you wish to remain willfully ignorant. That is why you are narrow minded.

My preachings are NOT to glorify myself but rather God...EVERYONE has the right for life, or God wouldn't give it...your perceptions on me are wrong...you call me ignorant and narrow minded...which I can then say (and i am not trying to insult you) you striving to better the world, or learn and grow, and or seeking a path of self honesty is deluted to just outright think calling another narrow minded WHENEVER 2 strive to have meaningful conversations and ones opinion differs from yours is acceptable in ANY belief or religion, philosophy etc...including Atheism...

Everyone does what they think is right even the those who believe that there is a god are still guessing at what they think is right. Everything we do as a human society is completely on the basis that we are doing what we think it right and yes we try and learn and progress. Just like not long ago slavery was thought to be okay, but it's difficult to find someone who still holds onto that view. Religion didn't teach not to enslave people, christianity actually promotes enslaving people.

So then again, in your learning and or progressing is it acceptable to insult another based on differences? or is that in itself what ignorance is?...you fail to mention later on the Bible also promotes liberation for ALL man kind in Jesus Christ's life and death...Just as much then as an Atheist saying this life is ALL we have...and 50 yrs from now, WE may then see it difficult to find someone who holds that true...Also I know for FACT God exhist...therefor, am not guessing at all...

You are only imagining that you are serving some being, but you have no basis to actually know that you are. So how is that any different than submitting to an imaginary friend? Nothing. You chose to invent this idea to make you feel better about yourself, but it does nothing more than you talking to yourself and using the same kind of guess work.

Is it imaginary...for me to see an afterlife in my dreams? Or deceased ones happy, or Jesus himself amongst MANY other examples...or do I have by your theory now basis to believe what I see?? I did not invent the idea, because whatever happens when I dream about these things are most times not what i think or would even expect to happen...but yet ALWAYS show the correct path is God...false, sometimes I feel worse...but perserver for my faith and others...

You mean trying to suppress people and dilute them and try and return them to ways that are obsolete. There is no eternal life and if there were it would be hell. I doubt you have actually thought that through. Let alone the implications and consequences of what that life would be like. You have absolutely NO idea what that includes but you could go back to guessing again. Why are you so sure that it would be in your best interest? Because you egotistically believe that it will be? Seriously?

but yet non believers ( the ones who have true understanding in your views) can't grasp the concept of the good things, therefore, how then is anything ever going to be fullfilled? rather than life itself destroy itself at some point? i said myself, if you doubt ANY part of the Bible doubt the bad...not the good, I have seen both...and therefor, don't believe the afterlife would just be hell then for all...as for myself I see me suffering now and not later, and many being saved later and NEVER punished...I think I have the concept of a GOOD afterlife down then wouldn't you agree?? and Do have good implications and consequences of what that life would be like...

You forgiving me for what I say to you does absolutely nothing. You can call it good if you want but it is only from your own perspective but you want to try and take a high and mighty stance from. I'll still call you delusional because that is what you are. That isn't an insult, it is the truth.

I am curious as to what constitutes an insult in your eyes? to me it is better to see me forgiving you as a GOOD thing, and learning and progressing...than one who claims to try to do these things but doesn't see calling someone narrow minded or delusional is clearly the opposite...

Only you wish to buy that BS, I don't. To me it sounds like a used car salesman pitch that you have converted into a mantra to make you feel better about things you can't fully grasp.

How then can I not say the same about your beliefs?? PROVE to me this exact statement couldn't be applied to Atheism....since Atheism relighs so much on FACTS....

Someone the furthest from logic telling someone they can't always be logical. Well there comes a time when you actually need to know what is true and is not true, other wise the world is completely absurd. You use that fact every day except when it comes to your theology then you shut it off like it is not necessary when it is.

please explain how i do this?....

Someone can not take on the debt of your actions and if a god were to actually say that the actions of someone long ago are your problem then that god is not even worthy of being called a god. It is absurd.

If I am a faithful believer, am purged but never give up on God, would I be worthy of eternal life if it exhists? and if your SAVED and NEVER purged because of God's faith in me, and now have eternal life, is God not edyfied in you and your life???as well as mine?

Again, how do you define greatness??


I live my life in pain for the sake of saving non believers...think of how hard that truly is? compared to one thinking that they can in fact DO whatever THEY FEEL is right and have NO consuquence AT ALL??

Do you define greatness as How many posessive things you have or own or grasp...or how many you have AND THEN SUBMIT THEM to help others and yourself?? to me true greatness is easier to see in this example it is extremely harder to submit making it "greater" by ANY definiton...