Forgivness in Christianity

@Krumple,

Some guys even when confronted with basic logic will never change...a matter of convenience and background culture...leave him in his comfort zone you are wasting your time...

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Some guys even when confronted with basic logic will never change...a matter of convenience and background culture...leave him in his comfort zone you are wasting your time...

You might very well be right but I have a duty as a social homosapien to help our species move forward and progress. If I can get some theists to actually use their brain and use reasoning to consider weather their beliefs are true or not they might finally realize that their beliefs are baseless and that is the beginning point for them. How do I know this can work? Because it happened to me and I think it will happen to every theists once people actually stress it's importance.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Quote:

You might very well be right but I have a duty as a social homosapien to help our species move forward and progress. If I can get some theists to actually use their brain and use reasoning to consider weather their beliefs are true or not they might finally realize that their beliefs are baseless and that is the beginning point for them.

Umm...Attacking a person is not about 'getting some theists to actually use their brain'. Failing to acknowledge any validity in their views is not about 'getting some theists to actually use their brain'. You say you are trying to achieve one thing while doing things that work against it.....so you would have to ask yourself what the true motivation is for doing things this way.

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I live my life in pain for the sake of saving non believers...think of how hard that truly is? compared to one thinking that they can in fact DO whatever THEY FEEL is right and have NO consuquence AT ALL??

Spade I would say the same for you - you say you are trying to save non believers, but your actions work against embracing people. You can't proclaim 'I forgive' you to people who feel you are in the wrong...and you can't influence people you have no rapport with. If you want to 'save' people, learn to understand people and their needs first, reach out in love for a brother or sister first (rather than a 'love born out of christ'). When they become interested - then tell them your stories.

Let me put it this way - imagine how you would react if someone came up to you and started talking to you about Leprechauns, and telling you how their God (let's say) 'Rainbow' had saved the world, made him a better person, and that all goodness flowed from Rainbow - and that's all he wanted to talk about, despite any views you held otherwise....Would you really want to talk to and listen to this person?

I define greatness in a different way by the way - as a person who has achieved happiness, warmth, friendship and laughter...who has inspired others and made the world a better place...who has known his/her soul and found peace...who has found their own importance and recognise others importance...who has accepted others and given love to both themselves and others...and at the end of the day...the greatest of all are those who have brought all of this together while being fully and genuinely 'themselves'

2 Replies

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Umm...Attacking a person is not about 'getting some theists to actually use their brain'. Failing to acknowledge any validity in their views is not about 'getting some theists to actually use their brain'. You say you are trying to achieve one thing while doing things that work against it.....so you would have to ask yourself what the true motivation is for doing things this way.

You might think it is an ineffective way but I'll have to tell you that it is the only effective method. Because you have to break through all the religious programming and pleasant debate doesn't get through at all.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Quote:

You might think it is an ineffective way but I'll have to tell you that it is the only effective method.

Really? Could you show me an example from this thread of how you've managed to be effective?

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Because you have to break through all the religious programming

So true if you have a desire to change someones view (as opposed to 'getting them to use their brains') - but if that were the case (having a desire to change someone), then I would I extend that thought to 'all programming'. Also, what constitues a 'break through' would probably differ in our individual views.

Quote:

and pleasant debate doesn't get through at all.

Odd, I could show you multiple quotes from this thread alone that show otherwise.

So if it isn't working - why do you do things this way?

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Quote:
You might think it is an ineffective way but I'll have to tell you that it is the only effective method.
Really? Could you show me an example from this thread of how you've managed to be effective?

Quote:
Because you have to break through all the religious programming
So true if you have a desire to change someones view (as opposed to 'getting them to use their brains') - but if that were the case (having a desire to change someone), then I would I extend that thought to 'all programming'. Also, what constitues a 'break through' would probably differ in our individual views.

Quote:
and pleasant debate doesn't get through at all.
Odd, I could show you multiple quotes from this thread alone that show otherwise.

So if it isn't working - why do you do things this way?

Who are you, the thought police? I think pretty much all you have there are your opinions.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

So...you attack others for not using their brains/logic and not having a supportable position, but when a 3rd party questions your position and thought processes/logic you can't back it up? Bemusingly hypocritical.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

it is difficult to understand let me see if I can clarify, and I thank you for being genuine....

Spade I would say the same for you - you say you are trying to save non believers, but your actions work against embracing people. You can't proclaim 'I forgive' you to people who feel you are in the wrong...and you can't influence people you have no rapport with. If you want to 'save' people, learn to understand people and their needs first, reach out in love for a brother or sister first (rather than a 'love born out of christ'). When they become interested - then tell them your stories.

my actions at times work against, but are becoming more of the way of Christ himself...I came on here and just preached outright what the words of God were or spoke boldly, and realized if anything this would jade people, So then I started to look at things openminedly and am seeing and starting to embrace, it may seem like i am heated but I am a very laid back person...and value these discussions....I don't think it will ever change my views but it will get others to see my perspective as well as myself seeing theirs...and if nothing else I can say we were friends because I don't nor will ever hate anyone...

2nd...to me it is possible, and I have seen it exhists...if you forgive people who NOW KNOW that THEY were wrong who may be in hell then it is possible to save them...they are looking for ANY help to be released...to lead them out from their path toward the light, lets just say...If a martyr can go into hell and release them...they are in hell and now are aware of the fact that they were wrong and God is right...they are looking for God, and my job as a servant on earth is to lead them out...for they can see God in me when I come...I see they are attacked or fight Satan to get out, to go toward the light (and that itself may even be the test, if they were bold enough and stood up to Satan he WOULD HAVE TO LET THEM OUT without harm if they just outright rejected him, I don't know)...but personally, I have been purged and others have been released....

and as for these statements...

If you want to 'save' people, learn to understand people and their needs first, reach out in love for a brother or sister first (rather than a 'love born out of Christ'). When they become interested - then tell them your stories.

I am currently on this path now....I am ALWAYS trying to embrace all, showing love, and preaching to no end to ones who say they believe but may or may not show it very well, as well as ones who I say are just asleep right now, and hope by you reading this you can see this too! have a nice day! I DO tell believers my visions and dreams, and I hope you or others do enjoy my visions and dreams or as you have called them stories as well...=)=)

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

I will start the whole conversation over....Where were you born? Where do you live? How old? Male or female? and what does your name Vikorr mean?

I am From the United States, in a little state called Connecticut, I currently live there, I am 29 yrs. old and am male...and my name XXSpadeMasterXX refers to the card game Spades...I am very skilled at it but have not played in a while...I used to think I was the best at everything with an immature mind set but am different, but use it as my screen name because I use it for almost all of my logins and its easy for me to remember...

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Fil Alequer....

Some guys even when confronted with basic logic will never change...a matter of convenience and background culture...leave him in his comfort zone you are wasting your time...

I think it's safe to say it's not convenient for me to suffer, or a comfort zone to go into hell and be chopped up maybe 50 times in my dreams... or go into hell and be on a raft of some-sort and floating in nothing but bloody water with pieces of human flesh in the water, or is that part of my background culture?...Do I get ANY comfort at all?? yes I do, If I AM IN FACT being purged or forgiven...or if others will NEVER have to witness things of that nature...to let others who might escape...

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

So...you attack others for not using their brains/logic and not having a supportable position, but when a 3rd party questions your position and thought processes/logic you can't back it up? Bemusingly hypocritical.

You think backing up your argument is a "na'ah"?

All you said was there are people on this site who have had success and you haven't had any success. I wasn't aware you were the person keeping track of all the success and failures. How exactly do you track them? Perhaps your own slanted bias as to what constitutes a success or failure? Perhaps you are just using conjecture? I vote for the later, which is why I didn't bother responding because it would have been silly to entertain you with a response to a silly remark.

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@Krumple,

That's one of the bizarrely funnier replies I have seen. I asked you to post examples of your success (of which there isn't any, despite you claiming your method is the ONLY successful way), and offered to post succes from other methods to show the error of your judgement. In replying, you used almost completely flawed logic - would you like me to provide multiple examples of very clear failures of your logic?

Unfortunately Krumple, people can see that you, who demands of others that they use their brain, cannot back up your own position with thoughtful reasoning...making it a clear cut case of hypocrisy.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

That's one of the bizarrely funnier replies I have seen. I asked you to post examples of your success (of which there isn't any, despite you claiming your method is the ONLY successful way), and offered to post succes from other methods to show the error of your judgement. In replying, you used almost completely flawed logic - would you like me to provide multiple examples of very clear failures of your logic?

Unfortunately Krumple, people can see that you, who demands of others that they use their brain, cannot back up your own position with thoughtful reasoning...making it a clear cut case of hypocrisy.

Once again saying "na-ah" doesn't constitute anything.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

I take it you are rather young? Child like replies and side tracking tactics simply don't work work on people who have seen it all before. Back up your statements with examples and reasoning.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

I take it you are rather young? Child like replies and side tracking tactics simply don't work work on people who have seen it all before. Back up your statements with examples and reasoning.

Yet again you can't pick up on a simple statement that you are calling me out on absolutely nothing. The reality of what is going on here is that you only want to derail a conversation because you have nothing to provide to the conversation.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

How...odd... this conversation started from a 3rd party asking you why you feel the need to attack the 2nd party. Ie. This started as not about what I have to offer, but why you feel the need to attack people. You then claimed it is the ONLY effective way to 'break through'...you were called to your own standard (to use your brains)...but can't offer examples or reasoning. Backing up your statements would strengthen your argument, not derail it.

Again...diversionary tactics do not work. Back up your position with some examples and reasoning.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

How...odd... this conversation started from a 3rd party asking you why you feel the need to attack the 2nd party. Ie. This started as not about what I have to offer, but why you feel the need to attack people.

You think that it is attacking people. I guess you are the authority on how things are done?

vikorr wrote:

You then claimed it is the ONLY effective way to 'break through'...you were called to your own standard (to use your brains)...but can't offer examples or reasoning. Backing up your statements would strengthen your argument, not derail it.

The point was that the usual civil debate is ineffective because if a believer were to actually use logical reasoning they wouldn't be a believer in the first place. If you actually try using logical reasoning they simply ignore it's use and stick with their wore out apologetic nonsense. So as a method of breaking through to them, mockery works quite well.

vikorr wrote:

Again...diversionary tactics do not work. Back up your position with some examples and reasoning.

It is not something that happens immediately. It is a gradual process. You want a list of statements? I'm sure you'll argue that you can find ones to the contrary but those will be far easier to come by because they will just be biased objectors, ie believers who want to claim failure. I know they exist because I am one of them.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Thank you for providing a more detailed reply.

Krumple wrote:

You think that it is attacking people. I guess you are the authority on how things are done?

Your statement doesn’t make sense. But let me give you a few examples of an ‘attitude’ that are either direct personal attacks, or all up amounts to personal attacks.

Krumple wrote:

Let me help you out with your narrow minded out look... person who willing accepts that god as being reasonable and logical is idiotic... Yeah you trying to get all high and mighty on your BS.... christianity actually promotes enslaving people... Someone the furthest from logic telling someone they can't always be logical.... If I can get some theists to actually use their brain

Krumple wrote:

The point was that the usual civil debate is ineffective because if a believer were to actually use logical reasoning they wouldn't be a believer in the first place. If you actually try using logical reasoning they simply ignore it's use and stick with their wore out apologetic nonsense.

Let’s clarify a few things – this isn’t what you claimed, which was
You might think it is an ineffective way but I'll have to tell you that it is the only effective method. If you wish to modify your claim to something more sustainable, that is fine by me.

Through civil debate, Spademaster went from thinking this :

Spademaster wrote:

and my conscience does not say that an all knowing, all loving, all patient god exist is evil... what makes it evil in your eyes?
to
yes I Do believe that killing childen for calling Elijah old baldy would essential be an evil act opposed to rightous...the RIGHT thing to do is to correct the children, and rebuke them in a way they understand and learn...
and
I agree with this...and will rephrase, ..take care of yourself...then empty what you have or what you know to others...

I honestly did not know and even except this point of view from an atheist, and I thank you for opening my eyes to it!.

<minor>I agree again

so then my question to you is if you seek to find knowledge...and self honesty <shows a degree of listenning>

Those were the more obvious agreements. There are many others that have him in one position and then thinking about his position, but they are more volumous, and not so clear.

Krumple wrote:

So as a method of breaking through to them, mockery works quite well.

Again I would ask – provide some examples showing how it has worked.

Krumple wrote:

It is not something that happens immediately. It is a gradual process.

...when does it start? Surely there would be some signs.

Krumple wrote:

I know they exist because I am one of them.

Whether or not that is what worked on you does not by itself help your position – there are always exceptions, so a single example can’t be used as proof that the majority is that way (that shouldn’t need any further explanation).

Something that iseffective, especially in relation to human interaction, generally needs to be effective on the majority – though especially needs to be effective for the subject person.

By the way, my position on Christianity...and on any belief that isn't violent, or doesn't lead to violence, is that - so long as you understand what you believe, can articulate it, and are not hypocritical about it - that is good enough for me (I'm sure there's exceptions to that rule)... there is almost no 'need' to attack others if you fully understand your beliefs (and generally, if they aren't consistent with what you say and do, then you don't fully understand them)...hence why I questioned you on your beliefs / the way you attacked .

If you read back on how I talked with Spade - you will find a similar pattern. I also commented to him about doing the exact same thing that started this conversation.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

Krumple wrote:

Let me help you out with your narrow minded out look... person who willing accepts that god as being reasonable and logical is idiotic... Yeah you trying to get all high and mighty on your BS.... christianity actually promotes enslaving people... Someone the furthest from logic telling someone they can't always be logical.... If I can get some theists to actually use their brain

I like how you take out the parts that you object to rather than actually post the entirety of what was written.

Yes I do think it is narrow minded for someone ask why is it an atheist would have a reason to live if they don't believe in a god. This person seriously could not come up with any possible reason? That IS being narrow minded.

A person who believes that a god is justified by torturing humans because they do not believe in it, IS idiotic.

A person who tries to claim a moral high ground and expects others to blindly accept their position just because they say so IS BS.

Calling someone illogical who themselves are not using any logic IS not using their brain.

I notice how you only focus on the negative and completely ignore the explained argument. Id say that too is being a little ridiculous.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Quote:

I like how you take out the parts that you object to rather than actually post the entirety of what was written.

A fair enough comment. Those are posted not due to context - but to show frequency and nature of language.

Quote:

Yes I do think it is narrow minded for someone ask why is it an atheist would have a reason to live if they don't believe in a god. This person seriously could not come up with any possible reason? That IS being narrow minded.

It's quite okay to find a person narrow minded in particular fields - we all are. So in some ways we agree - but you miss the point though if you think that is the problem I was talking about.

Quote:

A person who tries to claim a moral high ground and expects others to blindly accept their position just because they say so IS BS.

True, but unfortunately - this is exactly where you put yourself. You claim they don't use their minds (taking the moral high ground) and that attacking them is the only effective way to 'break through'...but you can't provide examples, or really much in the way of evidence/thoughtful reasoning to support this. Rather akin to hanging yourself by your own standards.

Quote:

Calling someone illogical who themselves are not using any logic IS not using their brain.

Not quite correct - there is 'some' logic, rather than your claimed total absence of logic. Further, they are using their brain, but not in the way you prefer. If you mean 'not being logical' - that's a fair enough comment, and I can post a number of very clear cases of you doing the same.

Quote:

I notice how you only focus on the negative and completely ignore the explained argument. Id say that too is being a little ridiculous.

That would be valid if I were arguing that many of the things you said were wrong...but I'm not. I was (though this shouldn't need pointing out so many times) mentioning that attacking people isn't a very effective way to get them to start thinking about what they are saying.

If you go back to my posts prior to your posts - you will find that I mentioned many similar things to what you did - in a different way.

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Forgivness in Christianity

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