Forgivness in Christianity

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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Do you believe you have started on the right foot on one of your core beliefs is friendships in showing me love as a brother or sister???

It's nice to have that as a core belief. But it's given to very few.

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mine: and is personally attacking Christians doing good in abundance to you? we differ in thought but we both share the same planet.

I know of no other group of people who believe that without God there is no incentive to do good...and this line of thought does not hold up to even the smallest amount of unbiased reflection. From that point of view – it’s an accurate assessment, rather than an attack. Of course if any form of critique is viewed as an attack, then I’m afraid you are asking for honest observations to never be made.

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you can believe with your mind by listening to your consciounce.

No – that is simply learning to listen to your conscience

Mine: what is the difference here. was this stated just to cause strife??

I pointed this out because belief and observation are two very different things. Belief and awareness are two very different things.
If you are going to believe in something, you should know what it is you are believing, and why you believe in it. Believing that your awareness is belief allows other beliefs that are then based on a fallacy.

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you believe with your body by treating others as you would want to be treated.

Umm...the actions of the body in this quote require a knowledge of how you want to be treated, and an attitude to treat others the same.

Mine: So then I guess I should just try to tear you down then rather then say I love you, because that is essentailly what you are trying to do to me and namly all Christians.

See above regarding beliefs. Also, not all Christians believe as you do – which makes the statement a fallacy. In regards to not saying ‘I love you’ (which I didn't) – is the best interest of a person served by allowing self deceptions to continue, or by showing them where they need to put more thought into one of the cornerstones of their life - their beliefs?

My point is – you don’t understand the nature of belief, and yet it is central to your Salvation.

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This does not follow on from the former.

Mine: It absolutely does because one of the most important is to be willing to die for another if needed as well as God.

It does not follow from the former, because the former can exist without the latter. So there is another/other reasons for the latter.

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So many athiest say they are content and value life but are content. Really? because I would take a bullet for you not knowing you or your beliefs. Would you do the same for me if your whole core belief is that you have one life and there is no after life

You do understand that contentment has little to do with willingness to sacrifice? In relation to whether one person would sacrifice themselves for another – I have always been of the belief that no person can ever tell that until they are called upon to do so...not even those who proclaim they would...or those who proclaim they wouldn’t.

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Why not just accept it as ALL GOOD and no doubt what YOU choose not to believe??

Because we have a conscience. Because we were given discernment. Because we are able to see the repercussions of events. Because we are able to see the effect on others of actions.

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How do you know all the answers that you can even question God?

Didn’t you say listen to your conscience?

Mine: And your Conscience (Gods voice) is speaking to you before and probably after this is posted and just rather being ruthless toward me?? wow I guess why I can see why You don't believe in God.

You miss the point – you were using your phrase ‘how do you know all the answers and how can you even question God’ to dismiss another person’s line of thought. I pointed out that the answer was your own statement of ‘listen to your conscience’. Again – you need to be consistent in your beliefs, otherwise you are just engaging in either self deception, or purposeful shallow mindedness.

And who said I didn’t believe in God?

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It didn't take a genius to figure that God sending a she bear to rip apart children (for no greater 'sin' than calling Elijah 'old baldy') was evil.

mine: SEE the last 5 remarks i made and see that it doesn't take a child long to find out that one of us is right on this subject. just by the shear act of slandering they will be able to see the truth in who speaks.

Slander? What an interesting interpretation. The story is in Black and White in the book of Elijah. Any person who these days got a gun and shot a group of children for calling him an old baldy would be labeled evil - whether he claimed to be a prophet or not, but we must somehow attach a different slant to the ‘all loving, all compassionate, all forgiving, child loving, patient’ God? Despite the fact that our consciences say this is utter evil?

The problem isn't Christianity, and nor is it a willingness to engage in a belief system or faith - it is the lack of questioning of the nature and consistency of your beliefs. That they usually only lead to discussions like this is fine.

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@vikorr,

Simply put, buttom line. If you looking truly for Jesus he is not hard to find at all...and if you go to no extremes to doubt the exsistance of a Supernatual being. then why should this supernatural being ever be willing to show faith and belief in you??

Atheists asked for physical evidence that a man Jesus ever exsisteded. and again I will post because not one Atheist has given me an answer yet. what would you describe a stigmata in your views?( it is were someone bears the wounds of Christ) (look up St. Pio or Padre Pio) please explain to me why or what a miracle is then? physically or scientifically etc...and explain to me why people of such high intelligence in most Atheists, can now see an action, physical proof by way of wounds in the same manner as said of on Jesus' body. and then have a conscience decision in either excepting that as proof as Atheist say doesn't exhist. or reject and find another way of trying not to be cornered? and look at that as anything but Factual proof to the doubters of his exhistance ever happened. Where or what then has the authority to do these acts? Why are they choosing to assimilate themselves with Christ? Why do Prophets arise and always speak from say one part at least of the Holy Trinity such as Christianity and Muslim? Why do Saints arise and are able to perform miracles on earth and they ALL give glory to Jesus? Coincidence? again please explain your view points with factual evidence since this one of an Atheist's core beliefs because I myself cannot wrap my mind around that logic. if he is wrong or in your beliefs never walked the earth?

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

and my conscience does not say that an all knowing, all loving, all patient god exist is evil... what makes it evil in your eyes? if there is no distinction between good and bad in the end as you have stated, are we both not going to eternal slumber if your theory is indeed correct??? it is my theory that stats othewise, and if I am indeed correct then I am also secure, but you may or may be not in the end. in fact my conscience tell me it is the right path...my conscience also tells me that centering oneself as the center of the world is being stubborn. but believing that WE as all the people who ever walked the earth or who ever will walk the earth make up one pure body in the end shows that it is not about one self but rather about what is good for ALL of us...in UNITY. How many people on here would not want the world to UNITE rather than strife with one another? I'm guessing a lot at least the ones who understand should...why then can you say it should be different here on earth? we have to acknowledge ones own perspective etc...how can anyone claim that unity should not be the way to go here on earth, but then think that by not being simple minded we would be united...and how then if everyone across the face of the world has a direct different experience...how then do you believe we will ever be united here? we wont. because on earth humans are selfish to the point where they deny God exhist...but in the next life it can be done and will be done becuase everyone in this place called Heaven WILL be in agreeance. and the true doubters till the end may not, and be seprated...
if I had a choice to do all the things in this world I truly wanted...I would be a little self absorbed don't you agree? but then I can choose to do things that benefit myself and benefit others at the same time...proving by simple equastions that doing acts to help myself as well as others has to be at least twice as great for myself...let alone any kind of thought of self presevation, if it is in fact Self glorification you strive after...even if it never presents it self to you because God and the afterlife dont exsist (in your views) well then what about the story's you would like for you future generations to speak... would you prefer them to speak good about you or twice as good about you??

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

because on earth humans are selfish to the point where they deny God exhist...but in the next life it can be done and will be done becuase everyone in this place called Heaven WILL be in agreeance. and the true doubters till the end may not, and be seprated...

this is also not to say that the people in Heaven united are then unintelligent... on the contrary the will be united and one body and God will truly be among them with his spirit upon them shedding utter knowledge to all...

plus even if you believe we are not so smart to an atheist. that would be you def. not mine. God will then take us and preach the never ending gospel which in turn would turn us to never ending wisdom...things that in most ways probably can't even be conceived here on earth...(Factual example)
One deny the gospel here on earth, how then can they say they can accept the wisdom of greater things?

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

and my conscience does not say that an all knowing, all loving, all patient god exist is evil... what makes it evil in your eyes? if there is no distinction between good and bad in the end as you have stated, are we both not going to eternal slumber if your theory is indeed correct??? it is my theory that stats othewise, and if I am indeed correct then I am also secure, but you may or may be not in the end. in fact my conscience tell me it is the right path.

this is not a contradiction...because you and I don't have all the answers and you may on the basis of your faith be in slumber as you have asked for but may miss out on the greater gifts that live in Heaven etc...Atheist may see this as evil however you wish to label it but the evilness lies solely with what choice we all make to deliever the end result in the end...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

this is not a contradiction...because you and I don't have all the answers and you may on the basis of your faith be in slumber as you have asked for but may miss out on the greater gifts that live in Heaven (because of your denial in the exhistance in him (God) If your content with this...then I guess your doing what you believe is ness. and essential. I choose to believe that God exsist, and simply choose a different path, I seek greater things (spiritual) because I already grasp the earthly realm for what it is worth to me...

etc...Atheist may see this as evil however you wish to label it but the evilness lies solely with what choice we all make to deliever the end result in the end...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

but then think that by not being simple minded we would be united...( let me clarify)

If one thinks on earth that it is good to be unified...then how then does God saying be simple minded to achieve Unity on earth if it were ever possible not make sense? The mear fact to me that we strive to question everything...including things that are not good to question in (my views as a believer) makes it clear and know that unity simply can't ever be achieved here on earth. There will always be people who go to extremes to Prove there opinions even if they are shown they may be wrong. hence for, the proof to me once again we need God. because were not perfected here an never will be. Gods words are evident in the present world in that in all stems to the cunclusion, we need a Savior. inclining me to believe that if some of its true...makes sense that its possible for ALL of it be true rather...than disecting everything trying to disprove. for if you are striving to do this it is essentially saying you may believe certain parts but when tested on them you really don't show any faith as to back it up...

There are some things that are meant to be tested as one another...and there are things not to be tested as such as God. and if your views are that there is insufficant proof to prove this for you believe no God exists. Again I explore you to look up miracles and Stigmata's as this is evidence of a higher being present here today...soley done for the one who disbelieves to start believing. not the other way around. Example: most people who have or experience a Stigmata are not close to God when it happens and then are converted and live a life faithfull to God. etc...people who live a sinfull life and are hit with Prophecies and are forever now a stong follower in the faith and do nothing but preach till no end. always felling persecution at every corner yet they still go on... and being tormented by the devil, a true martyr for the sake of help saving others as well as themselves...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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Simply put, buttom line. If you looking truly for Jesus he is not hard to find at all

I wouldn’t say ‘not hard’...but given your assumption – if he’s not hard at all to find, why then do you feel the need to have beliefs that are inconsistent, and hypocritical?

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and my conscience does not say that an all knowing, all loving, all patient god exist is evil... what makes it evil in your eyes?

Killing children for calling a guy ‘old baldy’ isn’t evil? I really don’t ever want to trust children into your care then – God help them if one of them said something out of line.

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because on earth humans are selfish to the point where they deny God exhist

Some would call that intelligence. Of course, I rather like the concept of God – just not necessarily the one as fully described in the Bible.

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I seek greater things (spiritual) because I already grasp the earthly realm for what it is worth to me...

I would have described this as seeking lesser things – for, by your own bible, god said ‘whatever you do, do it with all your might’, and seeking spirituality in this world, which is one of the tennants of all religions, should be done with all your might. Doing it with all your might is rather pointless though if you go looking in the wrong directions – so some discernment is needed to follow this tennant.

And there are so many other things that can be done with all your might, Spiritual things, physical things, relationships, for mental strength, memory, more mature emotions, better understanding of self, patience, fleeing from selfdeception, understanding etc.

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@vikorr,

and my conscience does not say that an all knowing, all loving, all patient god exist is evil... what makes it evil in your eyes?

Killing children for calling a guy ‘old baldy’ isn’t evil? I really don’t ever want to trust children into your care then – God help them if one of them said something out of line...

So for what one person does in their belief in God is automatically the correct one? or what one does justifies the whole core beliefs or the whole core quote unquote faithfull ones? How then do Atheists not contradict themselves in the fact that even Atheist compared to another Atheist disagree with one anothers point of view? does that not render in your eyes that all Atheists are then wrong at some point also?? and yes I Do believe that killing childen for calling Elijah old baldy would essential be an evil act opposed to rightous...the RIGHT thing to do is to correct the children, and rebuke them in a way they understand and learn...but a true follower would never even want to kill a child for doing such a thing...but rather help. Again you defintion of a TRUE Christian in your views is of one who is most times a True extremist...not a True Christian...I don't believe for a second that terrorist extremists symbolize a devout true practicing Muslim...etc

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

I see that you are unfamiliar with the story, for your whole reply is based on an error about who did what. I suggest you go back and read the story.

(it was God who sent the She bear)

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@vikorr,

In that culture mocking a persons representative was the same as mocking the person being represented. So by mocking and attacking God's prophet it was a form of Blasphemy which calls for the death penalty according to Torah. Without getting into all the specifics that is it in a nutshell.
Source(s):
Talmud and Bible... henceforth, man divided and SINFUL=need for a savior (JESUS)...for perhaps Elijah had to pay tribute for commanding the children be killed of God etc. no one knows for sure...Moses killed an egyptian and went on to lead a full filling life by tribualtion and giving his life over to God...etc if God does indeed exhist would you rather believe in a mercyless God? or one who has mercy? and if even the Prophets pay tributes for mistakes how then is it not justified etc? or how can you explain YOU shouldn't have to? they hand there lives over to God and still pay tributes in ways=remission of sins and eternal life, deny God and the FACT we all SIN=possible condemnation, who knows for sure....pay tribulation on earth=forgivness in Heaven. deny God or tribualtion now = paying tribualtions later...no escaping it anyway you break it down...therefore proving all is possible with God

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

plus if God does exhist...surely Elijah with command in God could have commanded they pass and let it go or command they be killed...perhaps this passage or reading tells more about Elijah's desires then Gods choice...Read Genesis. I am reminded that Abraham was tested as to killing his only son, and on the alter as Abraham was about to do it God stopped him and said. I know you have faith for you would give your only son for me but it is NOT LAWFUL to kill or sacrifice humans...proving they (Elijah and Moses) payed for there acts somehow someway. probably living the rest of there lives to the best of their ability toward God, learning and repenting and always growing when they were wrong or were away from God. and that God Forgives we only need to embrace to be embraced...

also Prophets are intercessions between people and God, and proving that back then Prophets had what you look for in miraculous acts to prove that God exhists...but what it proves is by testing God and asking for a miraculous deeds is indeed. lack of faith. in this case questioning Gods authority in not believing a Prophet words, a deed was done and the children were killed. and where as a life of contentness toward God is the answer and not what OUR hearts desire...in the fact of GIVE ME A SIGN AND I WILL BELIEVE etc...it shows put God to the test and you will NOT like the end results....God tests you and you have choice to pass or fall etc...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Read Genesis. I am reminded that Abraham was tested as to killing his only son, and on the alter as Abraham was about to do it God stopped him and said. I know you have faith for you would give your only son for me but it is NOT LAWFUL to kill or sacrifice humans...proves AT LEAST 3 things

1. if shown God and he told us by his voice to the non believers (a Sign) WE would out of free choice not knowing true wisdom WOULD have killed the son...(for the wisdom was the test not the act of killing the act of killing was the opposite) for if Abraham had the true wisdom to begin with when God asked him to sacrifice his only son...Abraham would have immediatly said no God for it is not lawful for me to kill or sacrifice human beings etc... and God would have said I am well pleased etc and gave praise etc...proof humans are and always have been incomplete on earth and sin and need a savior...

2. God never thinks at any point that it is LAWFULL to kill someone and or not pay tributes for doing such things...

3. and gives endless possibilities such as God shows Good and takes Satans evil and uses it for good....example God tested Abraham and Abraham did as God said and obeyed Gods voice but would have still fell in the fact of not stopping he would have killed his son. Then God gave praise to Abraham for passing the first test, and revealed the truth behind the whole test, that is to obey!, and truth behind HIS laws...then told Abraham the TRUTH in not to kill his son...And again Abraham showed faith in obeying and then NOT killing his son...proving there is the exhistance of faith and it should be embraced and not questioned but rather obeyed etc...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

for if Abraham had the true wisdom to begin with when God asked him to sacrifice his only son...Abraham would have immediatly said no God for it is not lawful for me to kill or sacrifice human beings etc...

And I understand, this was posted just to instill faith...for I understand that Had Abraham had TRUE wisdom God indeed would of and never had ANY reason to ask him to kill his son to test him in the first place. and the ONLY reason it was done was to INSTILL faith in Abraham not in God...henceforth shows that human beings without God and in all Their might still are incomplete...and follow OUR OWN desires...shows we NEED GOD and WE SHOULD obey rather than question...test one another, don't test GOD

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@vikorr,

And there are so many other things that can be done with all your might, Spiritual things, physical things, relationships, for mental strength, memory, more mature emotions, better understanding of self, patience, fleeing from selfdeception, understanding etc.

I agree with everything you have posted here...I think by seeking God You can find the TRUE answers to these things you are trying to understand with ALL your might...if it is self contenment you seek to find all you can ever find is what YOURSELF in CONTENT with...but by having faith in GOD it is revealed what TRUE CONTENTNESS is with ALL your might to the fact it is shown it is not something that is found in oneself but ONE in GOD who shows things that work universaly...example we wish for world piece but it won't be achieved here with the basis of all should believe in what they are content with in THEIR DESIRES...(ie one my believe in their contentness it is ok to murder one may not etc...) or to prove it the other way around...universaly God says thou shall not lie, thou shall not steal, thou shall not murder etc...who on here believes these things are exceptable? the ones who find self contentness in murdering are demmed sick or ill to believe it is contentness to take anothers life etc...and the ones who are sick but still show signs of some faith reveal it by their desire to kill. but KNOWING it is wrong...(example) confessing to police and breaking down and crying saying over and over I didn't want to shoot that person etc...)

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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In that culture mocking a persons representative was the same as mocking the person being represented. So by mocking and attacking God's prophet it was a form of Blasphemy which calls for the death penalty according to Torah. Without getting into all the specifics that is it in a nutshell.

It really doesn't matter whether it's Blasphemy or not. You are talking about killing children for calling a man 'old baldy'. It is plainly and simply, utterly evil.

You note also that millions of adults have blasphemed God, espescially in this modern age...yet God doesn't kill people now for Blaspheming him. It's not hypocrisy of the worst sort to let millions of adults off, and commit mass slaughter against children (whose understanding is much more limited than adults) for the same 'offence'?

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plus if God does exhist...surely Elijah with command in God could have commanded they pass and let it go or command they be killed...perhaps this passage or reading tells more about Elijah's desires then Gods choice...Read Genesis

Do you think an all knowing, all seeing, omnipotent God isn't aware of what is being done with his power? That's a rather lame and deliberate excuse, not a justification.

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@vikorr,

God has smited people instantly, and yes they were grown adults...Read where Jesus is Crucified and then King Herod...was given ample chances but still DID NOT give glory to God and was struck down and eaten by worms...seems like a painful way to go...being eaten by worms doesn't seem like it would be a quick death, least not by any worm I have ever seen...plus I don't ever recall worms having sharp teeth either...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

And yet it does not appear to happen today....so you still have the problem with your version, of an apparently all loving god mass slaughtering children for calling a prophet 'old baldy' (for your version of blasphemy - even if they wouldn't understand that is, apparently, blasphemy) while millions of adults today knowingly commit blasphemy (but don't give a damn) and are spared.

There's very little way you can justify this mass slaughter of children as not being evil, nor given the circumstances today, incredibly hypocritical.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

any TRUE CHRISTIAN and not so to speak a wolf in sheeps clothing knows that salvation IS doing good for yourself and others loving everyone as yourself. and believing in GOD with all you mind body and soul. that is the key to salvation to get you into heaven. because we are all sinners. so if God looked on our sins NO ONE would make it, we would all fall short of idealism. and if you dont believe in God what is your incentive to live? because most athiest dont believe in an afterlife. So what is the incentive to do good at any point in your life? and in my opinion truly repenting is trying to make atleast a conscious effert to stop your wrongs and not just saying it. though with GOD anything is possible

Actually there are many systems of morality, such as Kant's, which offer no incentive. The good is simply done because it is... good.

I doubt with God anything is possible. Is it possible for Him to make a square circle? Perhaps the things he can do cannot defy logic. Or better yet, maybe it is we who cannot think of such nonsense.

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@Ding an Sich,

Could god make a square circle? Probably, but it would only be discernable to Her. Human axioms are expressions of human nature/limitations.

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