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Philosophy- What Do we See?

 
 
JLNobody
 
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Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 04:40 pm
@Cyracuz,
Indeed, but I guess we can say that we see not just with our eyes (occipital lobe) but with other parts of our minds as well. When we ascribe the meaning, horse, to the phenomenon we understand to be that of a horse, we do so with such speed--unless, of course, it's the first time we've seen a horse--that it appears we are not ascribing that meaning to the phenomenon, that it comes with the experience. This is one of the bases for naive realism, the belief that meanings are inherent to the objects they define. It reminds me of the joke about the rustic man who said to the astronomer: "I really appreciate your discoveries of the planets in our solar system, but I wonder how you disovered their names."
JLNobody
 
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Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 04:46 pm
@zt09,
zt09,
Agreed: I would even go so far as to say that (in a sense) when I die I'm taking my world (including my property) with me. My subjective reality cannot persisst when I am no longer generating it. I go; it goes. My wife will still have "our" house, but she will not have my experience of the house.
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Cyracuz
 
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Reply Thu 12 May, 2011 10:15 am
@JLNobody,
If I were to quarrel a bit I could say that the meaning does come with the phenomenon. That is, if we go beyond the materialistic approach that has been so in fashion the last few hundred years. We have to consider the observing self as an intrinsic part of the phenomenon itself if this is to work, but if we can work with that notion, I think it is clear that the meaning of the phenomenon "horse" comes with the experience.
But I think it amounts to the same thing you are saying.
JLNobody
 
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Reply Thu 12 May, 2011 01:44 pm
@Cyracuz,
I guess the "meaning does come with the phenomenon" in that we have ingrained associations between meanings and phenomena. The association between the word "horse" and the horse-phenomenon is so well established, after doing so repeatedly over time, when we hear the word we image the animal and when we see the animal we IMMEDIATELY think horse. But while the process is virtually instantaneous it always involves the INTERMEDIATE step of making the association--no matter that the step is below awareness because of its speed--between concept and referent.
Thomas
 
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Reply Thu 12 May, 2011 09:07 pm
@loopylu15,
loopylu15 wrote:
What do we see with our own eyes?
An Example: I could say that the colour I see is Blue. However, it is just a noun for this colour. To someone else the blue I see could be completley different. To them it could be my version of Green.

But you and I will agree on whether the color green on the dollar note is the same as the color green of someone's car, or some tree, or whatever else we may describe as "green". And that's all we need to attach the word "green" to the color in a meaningful way.

loopylu15 wrote:
But we can never know as Colour is unexplainable.

Not true. As any physics textbook will tell you, color is rigorously explainable in terms of electromagnetic waves. Moreover, the way our eyes perceive color is just as rigorously explainable in terms of a specific photoreaction (trans-cis-isomerization) that happens in specific molecules (Rhodopsin) in your retina. The biophysics of that is more or less the same in all humans. True, there may be some difference in the signals our brains receive from our visual nerves. And even if that was the same, there could also be a difference in the way our brains process the signal. But color as such is utterly explainable. To deny it isn't philosophy, it's new-age poppycock.
zt09
 
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Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 12:51 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
But color as such is utterly explainable.


Yes we can compare one color against another, name it, measure the wavelength. The more general question is if one is able to know what color has an object (call this Objective Reality) if one don't know color of the glass (call this Observer) through which it sees the object. If no system can explain itself then we cannot explain the color of the glass from the point of view of the color of the glass. So how can we explain the true color of an object?
Cyracuz
 
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Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 02:20 am
@JLNobody,
What I meant in my quarreling was that the meaning is the phenomenon. In a way we never see horses, we see ourselves seeing horses. But on this conceptual level, where both me and horse are dualistic counterparts of the perceptive relationship such distinctions seem to have little meaning. I agree with what you say, I am just trying to stir my mind with the proverbial spoon. Smile
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Thomas
 
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Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 05:39 am
@zt09,
zt09 wrote:
The more general question is if one is able to know what color has an object (call this Objective Reality) if one don't know color of the glass (call this Observer) through which it sees the object.

No you don't. You first have to find out the color of the glass by producing light of a known wavelength, shining it through the glass, and deducing the color of the glass from the percentage of the the light that the glass absorbs. Once you know the glass's absorption spectrum, you can reconstruct the object's absorprion spectrum, and hence its color.
zt09
 
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Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 06:37 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
You first have to find out the color of the glass


In real world yes. But what if WE ARE the (thinking) colored glass (of course I understand this is even more absurd example but still...). The only way to find out our own color is to ask another thinking (and speaking) glass what color we are. But what if another glass has another color? Yes, we can see this color but ... through our own glass. And so on... And so on...

So what is the true color of the object? We never know. We only know what we see. This is our subjective picture of reality.
Fil Albuquerque
 
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Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 08:23 am
@zt09,
If it works it is not "subjective", as subjective meaning interpretatively false...it is a valid standing point concerning the relation not the thing in itself, what else is there to objectify which is not relational ?...there´s no object without relation...in its place what there is is a multi potential meta-object "thing"...
Same is to say that "subjective" is in itself an objective relation holder...there are no objective objects but there are objective functions !
The true "object" is the set of potential relations that composes a "thing"...the object is an "extension" intricately intertwined with other "extensions" in an ever greater order of relations...The Only actual Object must be composed of all extensions and relations, not sub-sets...and such, that Being is therefore the only OBJECT in fact there is ! Being is everything, and that includes perceptions and phenomena, as functionally true...
...now I can only wonder how many souls around the messy wild forum this has become can actually understand the compact statement being made here concerning what Natural is and means...or if its even worth to deliver it to such a poor audience...
joefromchicago
 
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Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 08:34 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
As any physics textbook will tell you, color is rigorously explainable in terms of electromagnetic waves. Moreover, the way our eyes perceive color is just as rigorously explainable in terms of a specific photoreaction (trans-cis-isomerization) that happens in specific molecules (Rhodopsin) in your retina.

The only reason that physicists know that a certain light wavelength corresponds with a certain color is because they can already see the colors -- they just find the wavelength that correlates with the appearance of that color. In other words, the only way that we know that the color blue corresponds with a wavelength of 440-490 is because we already know what blue is. But that doesn't establish that everyone sees the same color blue.
Fil Albuquerque
 
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Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 08:39 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

zt09 wrote:
The more general question is if one is able to know what color has an object (call this Objective Reality) if one don't know color of the glass (call this Observer) through which it sees the object.

No you don't. You first have to find out the color of the glass by producing light of a known wavelength, shining it through the glass, and deducing the color of the glass from the percentage of the the light that the glass absorbs. Once you know the glass's absorption spectrum, you can reconstruct the object's absorprion spectrum, and hence its color.


All very well and smart if it was n´t the fact that you left "colour" outside the issue at stake...colour actually refers to the perceptual relation in between the observer and the observed...although you may justify what causes it through materials and density´s and they relation with light, or the light waves they reflect and filter, still colour, as naturally used in common sense is essentially perceptional...wave lengths are the reason of colour but still they are not the colour as we experiment it !...that is just an assumption, a leap of faith there that you just made...
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Fil Albuquerque
 
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Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 08:40 am
@joefromchicago,
Agreed...
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zt09
 
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Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 11:26 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
well, if it's so confusing... not subjective ... say Observer Reality
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Thomas
 
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Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 01:55 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:
The only reason that physicists know that a certain light wavelength corresponds with a certain color is because they can already see the colors

That's not true. Here's another reason physicists know that: Together with biochemists, they have examined the photoreceptors in our eyes and measured which of those photoreceptors respond to which wavelength of light. (In different photoreceptors, different electrostatic environments surround the retinal molecules, shifting those molecules' absorption maximum in a distinct and predictable way.) In principle, then, even a team of color-blind physicists could have figured out that most other humans can see colors, how many different colors they can distinguish, and which range of wavelength each color corresponds to. The physicists themselves didn't have to see colors to figure out the correspondence.

joefromchicago wrote:
But that doesn't establish that everyone sees the same color blue.

That depends on what it means for you to "see" a color. If the sentence "I see blue" means, "incoming signal to my visual cortex from my retina's type-blue photoreceptors", then you're wrong: The biophysics of color and its reception by the eye do tell us that my blue is the same as your blue.

Of course, if by "seeing" you mean a form of perception that happens on some neurological level further up in your brain's signal-processing stack, all bets are off. But then I don't see anything that could establish whether my blue is your blue or not. The question, "is the `blue' I see the same as the `blue' you see?", simply becomes unintelligible under this definition of the term "see", and this lack of definition of the term "the same color".
Fil Albuquerque
 
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Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 02:06 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Of course, if by "seeing" you mean a form of perception that happens on a neurological level further up in your brain's signal-processing stack, all bets are off. But then I don't see anything that could establish whether my blue is your blue or not. The question, "is the `blue' I see the same as the `blue' you see?", simply becomes unintelligible under this definition of the term "see".


...well that seems to be the problem is n´t it ? When we say colour we are referring to a well thought conscious concept not just unfiltered meaningless data...but we don´t even need to go that far, concepts aside, it also perceptively depends on contextual side factors as involving environmental shadow and light surrounding contrasting "colours" and so on and on...its not a straight line !
(The image we see is composed as a whole "colour" included)
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Thomas
 
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Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 02:18 pm
@zt09,
zt09 wrote:
In real world yes. But what if WE ARE the (thinking) colored glass (of course I understand this is even more absurd example but still...). The only way to find out our own color is to ask another thinking (and speaking) glass what color we are. But what if another glass has another color? Yes, we can see this color but ... through our own glass. And so on... And so on...

It's a poetic word game no doubt, but---no. A surgeon could take a sample of our retina, examine your photoreceptors under an electron microscope, and tell if you are colorblind, for example. It wouldn't matter if the surgeon was himself colorblind or not.
Fil Albuquerque
 
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Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 02:26 pm
@Thomas,
I know you and I don´t talk much, but how about addressing the "hard stuff" in the name of clarity which is a thing I know you respect and care for...to where I stand you are just walking around the problem, but then maybe I am just seeing poorly...
joefromchicago
 
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Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 02:43 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:
The only reason that physicists know that a certain light wavelength corresponds with a certain color is because they can already see the colors

That's not true.

That's easy to say when you ignore what I wrote.

Thomas wrote:
Here's another reason physicists know that: Together with biochemists, they have examined the photoreceptors in our eyes and measured which of those photoreceptors respond to which wavelength of light. (In different photoreceptors, different electrostatic environments surround the retinal molecules, shifting those molecules' absorption maximum in a distinct and predictable way.) In principle, then, even a team of color-blind physicists could have figured out that most other humans can see colors, how many different colors they can distinguish, and which range of wavelength each color corresponds to. The physicists themselves didn't have to see colors to figure out the correspondence.

Nonsense. Saying that the human eye can detect different colors doesn't establish that the human eye detects blue when a certain light wavelength hits it. If everyone was color-blind, then nobody would know what color was produced by what wavelength. At most, they might suspect that different wavelengths affected different photoreceptors, but they would be totally unable to determine what the effect of those wavelengths might be.

Thomas wrote:
That depends on what it means for you to "see" a color. If the sentence "I see blue" means, "incoming signal to my visual cortex from my retina's type-blue photoreceptors", then you're wrong: The biophysics of color and its reception by the eye do tell us that my blue is the same as your blue.

You don't know that. Indeed, you can't know that. At most, all that you can say is that you think my blue is the same as your blue.

Thomas wrote:
Of course, if by "seeing" you mean a form of perception that happens on a neurological level further up in your brain's signal-processing stack, all bets are off. But then I don't see anything that could establish whether my blue is your blue or not.

I'm glad you see it my way.
Fil Albuquerque
 
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Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 02:45 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
...oh, and let me just ad in order to better make myself clear that above when I mentioned the contextual shadow and light I was not referring to the colour in question being subjected to a variance of brightness but to the others colours around it... obviously !
And I can assure you if you test this personally at home or with your friends you will straightly understand how context changes perception...

...as Joe just mention the key word where is "effect"...and not the thing (wave) which causes us to see colour as we see it !
(...there are several "things" on which colour is perceptually dependent and not just wave lengths...some of them depend on the subject rather then the emitter, and context mind building of relations is one, even in "simple" things as colours is thought to be...)
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