Did Waterboarding lead to the death of Osama?

@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Maybe you're a globally renown expert on torture, but I don't think so. Because you insist that torture doesn't work, doesn't make it so.

Then do not trust my word. Let's both do some research and return with the works of people who are experts on interrogation and find out what they say about the effectiveness of torture. If you like, we can even contain this exclusively to waterboarding. Deal?

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Yours is not an an argument on ethics, it is an argument on utility. Focusing so heavily on your belief that torture is ineffective, implies that if you believed it was effective you might be OK with it.

That was not my argument. I am not making an argument from utility. I said that if you wished to claim it was effective, to at least praise it for what it has a real record of: Fear propaganda.

My argument is based on ethics. Not necessarily golden rule standards, but basic rules of engagement to maintain what you yourself said: "restraint." I happen to think that means something both to our foes and to our own allies; both in and out crowd.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Your conclusion that I am saying that war "demands" using ineffective methods is a result of you're not comprehending what I wrote and your seemingly religious belief that torture is ineffective.

You have used language about war bringing about special circumstances. I've leave it to you to clarify this. I don't think the situation demands the use of these techniques. More importantly, the argument for their use comes prior to their proponent's argument of utility.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Effective or ineffective, I've not argued that war "demands" torture.

You are correct. If the word "demand" does not fit your views, would you accept that you believe the use of torture in war time is "justified?"

I feel your views are mostly statements on why you're willing to let it slide.

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@failures art,

I don't believe waterboarding is torture. Millions of Americans agree with me.

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@failures art,

If you honestly think "restraint" is going to make muslim murderers become nice, then you're farther over the rainbow than I first imagined.

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@Renaldo Dubois,

Boobie, do you think waterboarding will work on Xtian murderers?

1 Reply

@raprap,

Christian murderers are not the problem, unless you are an indoctrinated liberal who needs to have moral equivilency to excuse the hateful bigoted behvaior of Islam. More often then not, the liberal has absolutely no knowledge of either religion, and only has what they have been indoctrinated with from rabid left wing sites.

1 Reply

@Renaldo Dubois,

These guys caused a bit of a ruckus

Quote:

Jeffrey Dahmer - killed 17 men and boys (Mother and father were born again).

Ted Bundy - killed 26 to over 100 women (raised by his mother who was consumed with Christianity)

Robert Yates - convicted of 15 murders (had a solid Christian upbringing)

Dennis Rader - convicted of killing 10. Known as BTK (Bind torture kill) was baptized at the Zion Luteran Church. He was a Cub Scout Leader, and the president of the congregation of Christ Lutheran Church where he lived.

David Berkowitz (Son of Sam) - born-again Christian who murdered more than 10 women. - "I was searching the bible and soul searching and I decided God wanted me to do that."

The Yorkshire Rapier - murdered 11 girls and "was on a divine mission and felt hbobyevertye had been chosen to hear the word of GOD (JESUS)."

Miller - believed in Jesus, reportedly always carried a Bible.

Sampson Kanderayi (The Ax Killer) - Christian who killed more than 30 people; "did it to appease evil spirits.

Waterboard everybody Boobie, starting with you----where did you hide that pickle jar containing your brain?

1 Reply

@raprap,

Pathetic. Seems you have a comprehension problem also. Islamic terrorism is a world wide movement. The men you named are called "insane". People that go around murdering people and talk to God are called "schizophrenics". Do they have any night classes at your local community college. Might help with your confusion on this issue.

1 Reply

@Renaldo Dubois,

I have studied enough theology to realize no religion is inherently 'evil', only the warped interpretations by those with 'evil' intentions. For every Osama Bin Laden there's a David Koresh. For every suicide bomber there's a Timothy McVie.

Evil and pathology know all dogma and use them all equally.

Are you familiar with the golden rule bub? You know--treat strangers as you would want to be treated--that is also known as charity. Do you know charity is a basic tenet of Islam? The 'fourth' if my monkey mind memory serves me.

Do you know that Islam considers the Old and New Testaments as 'holy words of gawd' and requires compliance with all of the laws of Leviticus? Supposedly the same laws as Xtians are to comply to.

Get a grip bub, you're confusing evil people using gullible souls with dogma. Your interpretations of religion is your personal 'evil' not the religion you protest.

IOW if being 'liberal' is to disavow all of your demented and very limited protestations on a paranoid myopic opinion of theology--then I'm proud to be 'liberal'.

Now do the world a favor--go back to f**king sheep fulltime.

Rap

1 Reply

@Renaldo Dubois,

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

I don't believe waterboarding is torture.

Your opinion is noted.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

Millions of Americans agree with me.

I'm sure you are correct. Also, millions agree with me that it is torture.

More importantly, people who have received waterboarding consider it to be torture. Our soldiers often receive waterboarding as torture resistance training. Were you aware of that?

So have you been waterboarded?

Here is a scenario:

You have vital information on the security of your city. Your family and friends live in the city. You get abducted by people who want to execute a terrorist attack on your city. This would harm, and potentially kill your loved ones. They need the information you have.

They plan to waterboard you. How long before you give them the information they need to harm/kill your family and the other citizens?

What about information you don't have? If you were waterboarded, do you think your interrogator could get you to admit that you killed JFK or planned 9/11?

I eagerly await your answers. I think they will provide an excellent understanding of your conviction on these matters.

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1 Reply

@Renaldo Dubois,

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

If you honestly think "restraint" is going to make muslim murderers become nice, then you're farther over the rainbow than I first imagined.

I don't think restraint makes any murderer become nice independent of being Muslim, Christian, or otherwise.

I'm not concerned with what they become or do. I am concerned with what we become and do. I'm not accountable for other people's actions, only my own. Similarly, when actions are done in my name/interest, I have a reason to object.

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1 Reply

@raprap,

You're not a biblical scholar. Christians do not obey the laws of Leviticus.

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@failures art,

I'm not a terrorist with info. No need to waterboard me. So now you're equating me to a terrorist. First you call my family stupid and denying human rights and then you call me a terrorist. You're having a bad day. I think you really need a nap.

1 Reply

@failures art,

Go ahead and object. There are a lot of you who live here and benefit from those who do the heavy lifting. There are always parasites living off a host. It's normal.

1 Reply

@Renaldo Dubois,

Really Boobie?

Seems that not too long ago I read a pretty Levidican argument about homosexuality by one Rennie Duboyz.

It seems that this sheep f**ker says that legal marriage bonds are only permissible between different sexes.

Rap

0 Replies

@Renaldo Dubois,

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

I'm not a terrorist with info.

I did not say you were a terrorist. In my example, you are a good person being tortured by terrorists. So how long would it take you to break and give the terrorists the info they needed to execute their plot and harm/kill your family.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

No need to waterboard me.

The terrorists need the info you have in the example.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

So now you're equating me to a terrorist.

Incorrect.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

First you call my family stupid and denying human rights and then you call me a terrorist.

1) I did not call you family stupid.
2) If they voted yes on prop 8, then yes, I believe the denied other human rights.
3) I have not called you a terrorist.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

You're having a bad day.

Actually, today was a great day. My little sister graduated with honors from American University, and my whole family has been in town for it. It's been great.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

I think you really need a nap.

You are very considerate.

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@Renaldo Dubois,

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

Go ahead and object.

I do not require your permission, but thank you all the same.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

There are a lot of you who live here and benefit from those who do the heavy lifting.

On matters of national defense, I'd be considered a heavy lifter. I earn an excellent wage for my services.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

There are always parasites living off a host. It's normal.

I don't resent what I give or those who benefit from my gifts.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Sounds like blatham. Anyone know how he's doing?

Pretty good.

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@Renaldo Dubois,

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

I don't believe waterboarding is torture. Millions of Americans agree with me.

I'm glad that the other millions, who have a different view of it, followed the ideas of "enlightening" and think differently. Since two hundred years or so.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

I do agree that that war 'writes' different rules that are often outside the law.

Anecdotal: my father removed the red cross from his armoured medic vehicle, because the Russians used it as an easy target in 1941/2.
He was mock-killed as a non-combatant army surgeon after having taken POW in April 1945.(There, he -just he- had been shot at ... red cross as target ...

But all that doesn't make it legal.
More important: it doesn't make friends.

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@failures art,

Waterboarding isn't torture.

One more thing. When you replied about abortion you said you would fight the government if they try to legislate your body. Abortion isn't about your "body'. It's about the human being inside your "body". I think you have a few cells in your noggin that are losing power.

2 Replies

Did Waterboarding lead to the death of Osama?

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