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What the Space Shuttle Program should teach us

 
 
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 12:36 pm
1) Doing human space flight without a stable and adequate funding base is dangerous and expensive

2) Reusing parts can be a very expensive and dangerous way to go (the shuttle was very expensive per use, and they never solved the external fuel tank problems caused by reuse, and we destroyed two shuttles with many dead through reuse caused failures. ).

3) Our political system is not very good at running science or space flight. We built the space station only because we needed something for the shuttle to do, and almost nothing gets done in it, or is likely to get done in it before we abandon it. One President wants NASA to do one thing, the next President scraps it all and goes another direction, followed by the next who will scrap it all over again. Lots of money gets wasted ....gets spent but never produces anything.

4) We neither have much of a mission for NASA, nor does the average taxpayer care to find one

5) the government does just as poor a job of measuring risk as does Wall Street. The predicted catastrophic failure rate was no where near the actual rate.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 5 • Views: 2,732 • Replies: 22
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Joe Nation
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 12:44 pm
Where's the part about how robots can do more and better science than humans-in-space? (See Mars Rovers et al.)

Joe(on the blue dot)Nation
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 12:51 pm
the biggest problem i see is, the question of who reaps the spoils, there seems to be this idea that space is for everyone, but we don't have a world government, historically countries funded exploration for the benefit of themselves

there seems to be this idea that nobody can own the moon, bullshit, america got there first, they should own it, they may have to defend it from interlopers, just as every country has had to do before them

i have a funny feeling that when china gets to the moon, they're gonna say, it's theirs, and reap for themselves the benefits they can until someone stops them
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 12:54 pm
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:

Where's the part about how robots can do more and better science than humans-in-space? (See Mars Rovers et al.)

Joe(on the blue dot)Nation
OK, that can fit....if we say "comparing the human flight program to the robotics program....." You are correct of course.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 01:05 pm
@djjd62,
Quote:
i have a funny feeling that when china gets to the moon, they're gonna say, it's theirs, and reap for themselves the benefits they can until someone stops them
we will know soon enough, by how hard they push to violate treaties and norms in Antarctica. The signs do not look promising
Quote:
While the Antarctic Treaty, written in 1959 and amended in 1991, extended the provision against mineral exploration for 50 years, the agreement has never adequately addressed exactly who owns the seabed surrounding the continent. That future fight has been left to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS III), which has suggested the seabed around Antarctica, is the “common heritage” of “all interested parties.”

On more than 20 excursions to Antarctica's high, cold interior and the Peninsula, I've visited a dozen science bases from as many countries. Every single one of them has had some kind of drilling going on, always in the name of science, to study climate history or geology. I’m sure they are doing just that. But they are also drilling to figure out how to penetrate all that ice just in case someone “accidentally” strikes oil.

Who will be first, is a good question. The Chinese have recently announced a big new investment in Antarctica and may be the front-runner.

On the surface, China’s spending on planes, helicopters and outfitting its station for year-round use falls in line with the treaty’s “for science only” mandate. The upgrades also match China’s emergence as a growing influence around the globe. The country's new icebreaker will be able to carry 60 scientists and 8,000 tons of equipment, through five feet of ice. It expects to drill deeper than anyone has before, “through more than 1 million years of climate history.”

But in an upcoming Asian Survey story titled “China’s Rise in Antarctica,” New Zealand researcher Anne-Marie Brady suggests, “Chinese-language polar-science discussions are dominated by debates about resources and how China might gain its share.”

The Chinese government says of course it will be drilling at its newly retrofitted base, called Kunlun, but only for science. Yet its Antarctic program is a division of the State Oceanic Administration, which last week sent submersibles to the bottom of the South China Sea to claim its disputed seabed for the motherland.

http://www.takepart.com/news/2010/09/10/will-china-be-first-to-drill-for-antarctic-oil
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 01:27 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
we will know soon enough, by how hard they push to violate treaties and norms in Antarctica. The signs do not look promising


Stop with the hypocrisy and the finger pointing, Hawk, it becomes you.

Does it really bug you that badly that there might be some country that seeks to replace the US as the number one rapist of Mother Earth?

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 01:39 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Does it really bug you that badly that there might be some country that seeks to replace the US as the number one rapist of Mother Earth?
Could we once and for all get your investment here? Did America kill your parents? Refuse to pay you? Turn down your Visa request? With as much as you litter A2K with your hate I think we have a right to know where it comes from.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 01:44 pm
@hawkeye10,
As Chomsky often points out, anti-Americanism is a mindless slogan. If he criticizes Portugal’s foreign policy, does that make him anti-Portuguese?
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 01:46 pm
@hawkeye10,
amerigo vespucci kicked my great great great grandfathers dog
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 01:47 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

As Chomsky often points out, anti-Americanism is a mindless slogan. If he criticizes Portugal’s foreign policy, does that make him anti-Portuguese?
You are clearly emotionally invested, and you have a duty to inform your audience from whence this emotion comes.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 02:00 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

We built the space station only because we needed something for the shuttle to do, and almost nothing gets done in it, or is likely to get done in it before we abandon it.


That's a funny observation, but probably mostly true.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 02:03 pm
@hawkeye10,
You stupid dumb ****.

You dare to suggest that "I'm emotionally invested" and you're not! It's always finger pointing at other countries for the obvious purpose of diverting attention away from the US, the greatest purveyor of violence on the planet.

For the record, the US has never done anything to me personally. What it has done, and this should bother those with even the slightest level of morality, is provide for, both actively and by supporting others, the deaths of millions, the torture of dog knows how many, the rape of, really, who the **** could even begin to imagine, ..., all the while, and this actually makes it worse, much much worse, mouthing platitudes about how wrong all these bad bad things are that everyone else shouldn't do.

And you dare to raise this kind of drivel, Hawk!
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 02:09 pm
Yeah, how dare you suggest that she's emotionally invested, Hawk! Laughing Laughing

Cycloptichorn
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 02:11 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
For the record, the US has never done anything to me personally. What it has done, and this should bother those with even the slightest level of morality, is provide for, both actively and by supporting others, the deaths of millions, the torture of dog knows how many, the rape of, really, who the **** could even begin to imagine, ..., all the while, and this actually makes it worse, much much worse, mouthing platitudes about how wrong all these things are bad bad things that everyone else shouldn't do.
That does not wash...Love and hate are two sides of the same emotional attachment, from the heart, and yet you display this emotional attachment while claiming that your objection is intellectual and moral, IE from the head. Do you see the problem? It cant be true, you are not explaining the JTT whom we see. Maybe you dont know where your hate comes from, in which case you should figure it out, preferably before you spread any more of it around.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 02:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
I think that many of us share some of JTTs frustrations with our govt. However where we differ with him is that he has taken a position to the extreme that borders on delusion AND he feels that this can never be fixed .
As Tommy J said(FIRST), Democracy is a terrible form of govt, except for all the others.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 02:18 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
So now you're lying about ignoring me, eh, Cy? What's your next pathetic attempt going to be?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 02:19 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
I think that many of us share some of JTTs frustrations with our govt. However where we differ with him is that he has taken a position that this can never be fixed .
And I think that both parties should be killed and I have called for revolution, and I have hung out with many radicals over the years, so I know about non conformists..... but JTT comes off as the "blinded by rage" type, who are best kept as far out of the loop as possible, because they are not reliable in either their judgment nor their loyalties.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 02:27 pm
@hawkeye10,
I suppose thats another way of looking at it
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 02:33 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
I think that many of us share some of JTTs frustrations with our govt. However where we differ with him is that he has taken a position to the extreme that borders on delusion AND he feels that this can never be fixed .


You really love to use those euphemisms, Farmer, to describe deeply evil criminal behavior. What good did "frustrations" do when Reagan was having 40 to 50 thousand Nicaraguans tortured and murdered? Have your frustrations helped to put the remaining members of the Reagan gang into prison for all their crimes? How about the Bush Sr and the Bush Jr gangs - how many are doing time?

Can it ever be fixed? It's never even been attempted. Since, at the least, the Philippines, it has been nonstop murder and mayhem. The record clearly shows this. The record from US government sources.

Quote:
As Tommy J said(FIRST), Democracy is a terrible form of govt, except for all the others.


More little aphorisms. Democracy entails the rule of law and respect for the rule of law. Again, the record shows that that has been severely and wantonly abused by government after government for well over a century.

Look around you for dogs sake. It's happening still, all over the damn world.

farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 04:07 pm
@JTT,
I call you delusional and that is based upon experience herein. In the "All things Civil War" Thread, youve been posting things about Lincoln that , really, arent a big secret. AND, youve been hosting a pwersonal resentmentabout the Union when youve failed to look at the similar "atrocities" (Your word), of the CSA.
History is data and an attempt at weaving tha facts into a credible story. Its not necessarily taking up sides that cloud your abilities and destroy your objectivity.

Thats the way I see it. Im sure you see yourself differently but, your not a valid assayer of your own views,(no one is good at autoassesment)
 

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