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Perfect Government?

 
 
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2011 07:11 pm
Is there a perfect government? if so, what is this?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,195 • Replies: 39
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ohmylady
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 12:07 am
@hamilton,
no, i am sure there is no.
This is just like there is no perfect person.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 12:25 am
@ohmylady,
Maybe one man on an island.
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 01:00 am
@roger,
No man is an island... Cool

A
R
T
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 01:01 am
I don't need a perfect government. I'm okay with a "more perfect union..."

A
R
T
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 02:04 am
@hamilton,
hamilton wrote:
Is there a perfect government? if so, what is this?
For your question to make sense,
for it to be INTELLIGIBLE, u need to designate the criteria
by which perfection will be calculated or analyzed.





David
roger
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 02:09 am
@failures art,
I am a Rock. I am an Island.

Pfffft!
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 02:16 am
@roger,
roger wrote:
I am a Rock. I am an Island.

Pfffft!
Flawless DIAMOND
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 05:37 am
@hamilton,
hamilton wrote:

Is there a perfect government? if so, what is this?
Perfect government is self control and restraint multiplied by the number of people so governed... It is not possible only because people are not perfect and to try to be so is a waste of time... But democracy is good enough as long as people understand that it is essential for their governments to be periodically reformed because all forms, whether of government or economy down to the most simple of human relationships are likely to turned by those who need them least against those who need them more... Democracy which demands a certain equality of rights and wealth is very suseptible to perversion simply because the one thing all people are is unequal, and those who would turn all forms to their benefit have a sense for unequal relationships... Any society that works may be compared to a love relationship, and often we see where one will love and the other will use... The used may waste their time, but no less do the users waste theirs... What does it matter in the end??? When societies lay crushed beneath the Juggernaut of history does it matter who died with the most??? Those societies that have survived all manor of threats through all of time, prehistory and history included where socialistic, and democratic since each is a reflection of the other and a support... Economic inequality in time destroys political equality and with it: Democracy... Majority rule is not democracy... Republics are not democracies, but only democratic, and we need more than democratic... We need the real thing...
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 05:44 am
@hamilton,
hamilton wrote:
Is there a perfect government? if so, what is this?


sure, a perfect government would be one in which every elected official was killed on inauguration day before they have a chance to **** things up
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 05:46 am
@roger,
roger wrote:

Maybe one man on an island.
Governments are forms and all forms are forms of relationship... The man alone, like the last man on earth would have no forms because he could have no relationships, and he could have no meaning either, no more than one already dead... If one were only lost to human society they would not lose all meaning forever, like the dead; but their meaning would only be hypothetical, possible, and not impossible... Democracy is the form of relationship where the most people can share the most meaning for the longest period of time... Since Democracies are primarily defensive, many democracies have survived up to the present moment for many thousands of years... Those tyrannies wishing none of the restraints of democracy destroyed themselves in conquest...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 05:51 am
@failures art,
failures art wrote:

No man is an island... Cool

A
R
T
No person alone is anything... People get their meaning in relation to others... What is language but so many shared meanings, and what meaning has language with no one to talk to??? Friday made Robinson Caruso.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 05:56 am
@failures art,
failures art wrote:

I don't need a perfect government. I'm okay with a "more perfect union..."

A
R
T
Fine for you, but it is all the aims listed in the Preamble of the Constitution which are the true aim of good government, and those qualities are not goods given to the people by government which it might easily take back or withhold, but are the goods people give to themselves by way of government...Good does not come out of our government because it is not our government... The debt is ours... The advantages of government are given to others with the power to purchase them....
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 06:06 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

hamilton wrote:
Is there a perfect government? if so, what is this?
For your question to make sense,
for it to be INTELLIGIBLE, u need to designate the criteria
by which perfection will be calculated or analyzed.





David
Perfection is a moral form, much like God, or time, or life, or liberty... It is upon such moral forms that humanity disagrees, and often wars... I like what the Muslims say: That only Allah is perfect... I try not to use the word, either word, but I will say that good enough is good enough... We may well agree that the government we have is not good enough since our disagreement on every issue stems from the inability and the want of desire in the government to give each of us the good we need from it, while sowing enmity, and insolence to grow up between us... Our government like that of the Romans divides and rules the people... It is fear of the other party that gets our vote for our party... It is hatred that drives us to the poles... If we could exchange our fear and hatred of each other today for trust and love we might in one day dispose of the parties and have a chance at democracy... The land of the brave and the home of the free is neither, but we are the made slaves of our timidity...
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 06:06 am
@djjd62,
hamilton wrote:
Is there a perfect government? if so, what is this?
djjd62 wrote:
sure, a perfect government would be one in which every elected official was killed on inauguration day
before they have a chance to **** things up
Thay shoud have put that into the Constitution -- or at least tar & feather them.
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 06:39 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

hamilton wrote:
Is there a perfect government? if so, what is this?
djjd62 wrote:
sure, a perfect government would be one in which every elected official was killed on inauguration day
before they have a chance to **** things up
Thay shoud have put that into the Constitution -- or at least tar & feather them.
The Athenians who gave to fate the power to elect officials in their society, deciding from the elegable by lots, always tried their officials in court after their term... But try to understand; they had a closer approximtion to democracy... We were suppose to have a ratio of one representative for every 30k, and since the parties made their own rules we now have representation at a ratio of one for 600K+... The Athenian supreme court which decided all questions had a ratio of one represntative for every 250 citizens... That is the place where our representative government was perverted... Having limited numbers made the house a sellers market... When the party owned the state house it could gerrymander districts to give party candidate unlimited power, and life terms... In the process they might deny whole sections of the population the cndidates of their choice, and in this neither party is free of guilt... Better government does not grow out of denying people representation, but rotton government does...
0 Replies
 
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 07:25 am
@hamilton,
to refine my question, is there a government that can function free of corruption, maintain peace, a successful economy, and good foreign relations?
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 07:31 am
@hamilton,
any government could do all those things to a certain extent, peace and a good economy are affected by the international community, unless the government adopts an isolationist policy, in which they could easily maintain their own peace and economy
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 08:31 am
@hamilton,
hamilton wrote:

to refine my question, is there a government that can function free of corruption, maintain peace, a successful economy, and good foreign relations?
No; but neither is there a form of dwelling or clothing that will last forever... Instead, the people should be prepared to change their forms periodically since all progress and all human advance involves a change of forms... We in the U.S. have gone as far as we can with the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution... The constitution concedes from the start that those who wrote it understood the proper role of government and as soon went about sabotaging that aim... And the parties only added to the sabotage, counted on and exacerbated our division... And the Declaration of Independence which lays out the legal argument for revolution and gives us the right also acknowledges that people do not like to change their forms, and do so only out of necessity, and this we surely know...

It is essential to understand that people while all being deeply conservative and fear change, but the fear that binds them as religion to old forms is really the fear of death... People who cannot change their forms when change is needed are dragged down to death and slavery by them... And while people seek to stop change with their forms, to lock in a moment of perfection in them, there is not one that cannot sooner or later be turned against them... The flaws of our constititution were evident from the start... There was little protection from outlaw presidents like Jackson, the cancer of slavery, and the absolute and undemocratic power of the Supreme Court... The failures of our government by parties has led us stumbling into wars without merit or preparation... Our Government was always open to abuse and influence by money... But if we cannot understand what must be done, or even understand the situation as well as Jefferson understood his, then we will certainly be destroyed by the failures of our form of government... Just as in England, the Constitution here is but a sheet, and the true constitution is what binds those with the power in support of each other... You will not change the government without a change of economy, or without a change of religion... Yet; all are forms and can best be understood by that common denominator...
hamilton
 
  0  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 12:10 pm
@Fido,
i think that to have an efficient government, it either has to have 100% power, forming a dictatorship (without necessarily a sole leader) or All the power goes to the people, in a way that all are equal. if it is not one of those ways, there can be struggles for power, and opportunities for corruption, forming more conflict. also, that government would have to be worldwide, MUST be worldwide, and therefore accepted by everyone. otherwise, conflict would arise. either complete freedom, or complete oppression (for lack of a better term) (with human rights, of course). to me, those are the ways to go. complete equality among people.
 

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