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Islam and human values

 
 
Cyracuz
 
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2011 08:31 am
If a religion is in voilation of human rights, as some aspects of Islam can be said to be, what takes presedence? The religious beliefs or the human rights?

A lot of muslims seem to believe that women are far inferior to men. They don't have the same rights, and can be punished for merely walking on the street alone. The justification for this is their holy scriptures, which is the highest law for muslims, above even the laws of nations.
To me it seems like a "punishment" that is forced on women just because men can't control their sexual urges.

Based on Islamic traditions and practices I am inclined to say that Islam is a threat to the rights of all humans. Can we allow religious freedom if it restricts those rights?
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Type: Question • Score: 0 • Views: 2,072 • Replies: 17
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2011 09:13 am
@Cyracuz,
You're pulling out the old chestnuts lately ! Laughing

My view is that the concept of "human rights" is itself problematic. But irrespective of that, it is certainly the case that traditional monotheistic religion in general, and Islam in particular, are chauvinist embodiments of primate social structures, plagued by the attempt to reconcile prescriptive social rules with natural animal sexual instincts. But try telling them that and you'll end up on the wrong end of a fatwah !
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2011 09:41 am
@fresco,
Hehe, perhaps I am Smile

This is from wikipedia on Sharia, the code of conduct or religious law of Islam.
Quote:
Qadi 'Iyad argues that Sharia does not allow freedom of speech in such matters as criticism of Muhammad. Such criticism is blasphemy and punishable by death.


It seems that some Islamic nations have made their own declaration, the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam. Criticism against this declaration claims that the protection of Islam seems to take presedence over "protecting their citizens from egregious human rights violations".

Another place in the wiki article you can read that the inheritance a daughter gets when parents die is specified to be half of that which a son recieves.

I get that all this is a matter of cultural and religious roots, but it's well over a thousand years ago since Norway was literally christianed in blood. Those who would not convert were cut down. Seems to me that Islam of today is at that level.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2011 10:51 am
@Cyracuz,
Whenever a religion get control of a state it tend to act in a similar way to Islam and that is the problem not Islam.
manored
 
  0  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2011 11:42 am
Personally I dislike all religions, not just islam. All of then get in the way of human rights or the progress of humanity. For example, chritianism is bogging down medical research in many countries due to its belief of that fetuses have souls and so you cant kill them no matter how early along the way they are. It also helps overpopulate the world by opposing abortion and birth control.
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Cyracuz
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2011 12:07 pm
@BillRM,
Perhaps. I am not entirely convinced though, since the beliefs and attitudes of many muslims relate to religious beliefs, not political.

Like I said, when the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was made, the first consideration was the wellfare of human beings.

In contrast, the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam (a response to criticism against Islam for violating human rights) is first and foremost concerned with protecting Islam, not the freedoms and rights of muslims.

But the bottom line is this: I talked to a muslim after some caricature drawings of Mohammed had been published in a Norwegian newspaper. He told me that he hoped the people responsible (meaning everyone assiciated with the newspaper) got what they deserved. I asked him what that would be, and he did not even hesitate for a split second before telling me that they should be killed, and that it was a muslim's duty to kill them. He was really agitated. Over a drawing... And this guy was a regular arabic immigrant. He didn't see himself as an extrimist, and told me his views were not particular to any sub group of Islam, but islamic law.
Blasphemy (which this drawing was according to muslims) is a crime punishable by death.

No matter how you spin it, intolerance and attitudes of this kind is volatile and dangerous to humanity as a species.
If a caricature is enough reason, according to a religious law, to justifiably kill someone, there is something seriously wrong with that law, in my opinion.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2011 01:08 pm
Do you know the name Mosab Hassan Yousef?
He is the son of Sheikh Hassan Yousef, the founder of Hamas, and used to be the president of the Islamic youth movement.
Now he lives in california and has changed his name to Joseph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYXHKLmpVBs&feature=related

I am not saying this guy has all the answers, but when someone with this background goes public with saying that the god of the koran is a problem for humanity, I am inclined to at least consider his words.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2011 01:13 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
I am not saying this guy has all the answers, but when someone with this background goes public with saying that the god of the koran is a problem for humanity, I am inclined to at least consider his words.


The god of the Jews, the god of the Christians and the god of the Muslims all had produce killings in the name of those gods.

All three peoples of the book in other word had produce evil in the name of god.

Right at the moment it is indeed the Muslims who have the most members who are doing evil in the name of that religion but this ability to produce harm is firmly in the core of all three of the above faiths.
Cyracuz
 
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Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2011 01:35 pm
@BillRM,
Yes, BillRM

But the difference is that the vast majority of christians today aren't likely to want to murder you for saying you don't believe in god.

But it is a law of islam that anyone who speaks against allah and his prophet should be killed for it.
A similar law may have been in effect for jews and christians, and we all know that the behaviour of christians a thousand years ago wasn't precicely laudable, but that doesn't change the fact that the behaviour of the crusaders a thousand years ago is comparable to how Islam dictates muslims should behave today.

Here is another clip of an ex muslim who looks at it with human eyes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbz2ZC59_yw&NR=1&feature=fvwp

Admittedly though, my position on this isn't well founded. I am gathering information still.
BillRM
 
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Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2011 01:46 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
But the difference is that the vast majority of christians today aren't likely to want to murder you for saying you don't believe in god.


The vast majority of Muslims are not going to kill you for so doing either.

The bible that Christians follow call for the killings of homosexuals and the killing of back talking children.
Cyracuz
 
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Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2011 02:05 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
The vast majority of Muslims are not going to kill you for so doing either.


Muslim leaders do. For all other religions, if a christian priest goes public urging people to act on the more extreme aspects of christianity, I am pretty sure he would not remain a priest for long.

I am not trying to paint all other religions than Islam as good religions. But out of a basket of bad eggs, Islam is definitely the worst.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2011 02:26 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
But out of a basket of bad eggs, Islam is definitely the worst.


At this short point in time you might have a point however I would not bet going forward in time and surely not going backward in time that would or will hold true.

Or said in another way integrating over any long time period there seem to be no real indication that Islam is any worst or any better in this regard then the other major faiths.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2011 02:40 pm
@BillRM,
I don't know what you mean by that.
The time of this thread, or of history?
Either way, that Islam is the "worst egg" is really nothing more than an opinion.
0 Replies
 
manored
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2011 09:47 am
Most religions have the potential in their base beliefs to be violent and intolerant, Islam just happens to be a religion that is interpreting then that way at the moment, while christianism was a religion that used to interpret its teachings that way, but over time people started rejecting that extremism and adopting "softer" forms of the religion.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2011 12:34 pm
@manored,
Quote:
Islam just happens to be a religion that is interpreting then that way at the moment, while christianism was a religion that used to interpret its teachings that way, but over time people started rejecting that extremism and adopting "softer" forms of the religion.


Agree for the moment however, there is no guarantee that the Christian right wing will not once more gain more control over the religion as a whole and put Islam to shame.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2011 12:46 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
But the difference is that the vast majority of christians today aren't likely to want to murder you for saying you don't believe in god
.


Sorry you case is not proven as there are a numbers of Muslims in my life who are fully aware of my viewpoints and as yet not one had try to kill me or do me harm anymore then the Christians who are aware of my stands.

Frankly I view you as a bigot that is trying your best to tar the majority of peaceful Muslims for the sins of the very worst of the religion nuts of that faith.

So to sum up your statement concerning Christians also apply to Muslims even if you wish against all logic to claim that Muslims as a group are cold blood murderers.
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BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2011 12:47 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
if a christian priest goes public urging people to act on the more extreme aspects of christianity, I am pretty sure he would not remain a priest for long.


I can only assume you do not own a radio or a TV set and are not aware of the statements broadcast by the Christians right 24/7.
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manored
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2011 10:46 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Agree for the moment however, there is no guarantee that the Christian right wing will not once more gain more control over the religion as a whole and put Islam to shame.
I agree with that, albeit I find it highly unlikely.
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