A Bible Club Controversy

The implications of which you obviously did not understand in this case.

Yanno, this is an interesting kind of a case once we get past the signal to noise deal.

There is a question re the establishment clause, to be sure. And the teacher being involved -- and this being conducted during the school day -- those are key points.

One thing about standing and not having kids. Sure, snood may not have kids (I don't, either), but if he lives in the district then he is a taxpayer and the schools (and teachers' salaries, and club facilities maintenance, etc.) are paid for with tax dollars, regardless of the reproductive habits of the district's residents.

I am seeing the reporter/newspaper as not wanting to stir up a potential hornet's nest but, isn't that kinda their jobs? It is disturbing that the paper (clearly run but a serious Constitutional scholar ) made the determination without even checking, cursorily, with an attorney to see if, maybe, just maybe, there was a story in it -- even if snood turns out to be incorrect. After all, even being, perhaps, incorrect in this matter could still afford the paper a chance to write a compelling story.

There is no problem with it being during school hours or not school hours.

There are free periods that can be used for study halls and clubs in most schools.

Having such clubs is settle laws and you do not need a legal expert.

The minor issue of having a teacher leading the group incorrectly hardly seem to call for front page news coverage.

Is that in the case itself? I ask because, of course, schools have limited space and limited soundproofing. I imagine some religious meetings could become rather lively. I'm not necessarily playing the class disruption card -- just wondering, yanno, students hearing each other, etc.

Why would a religion club be more likely to cause more noise etc then say a chess club or a science club or a photo club or.................

Just a thought - re loud prayer. E. g. Baptist folk, also some loud davening. It can happen, and Queen to Queen's Bishop three isn't going to be as much of an issue as You're going to hell unless you accept Jesus. Certainly the chess move isn't mentioned in our Constitution. But religion is.

There are, yes, qualitative differences between the two?

When I was in High School, we kinda danced around the subject when I was in AP English because, let's face it, a lotta literature that was gonna be on the test was biblically-based (e. g. Moby Dick springs to mind immediately). But we did not discuss the bible at all -- after all, not everyone even agrees on using the King James version even if they're all in the same denomination.

There is as far as I can see no more likely noise from loud prayers then many other things and you are reaching as a lot of things are possible anytime you have any group of children together.

Chess moves and the constitution not covering it is true however that is why there are special rules concerning bible clubs that does not apply to a chess club.

A chess club would not required a teacher not to take part under law as it does for bible clubs.

The special rule (and you may be reaching a bit, too) is specifically because this is an area covered by our Constitution. Once chess is covered then it, too, can get special rules. But there is a qualitative difference between chess and religion.

And -- I am not talking so much about noise as an issue (which I had thought I had made clear). Rather, that others will hear -- and potentially be influenced, etc. In a country where Congress shall make no law abridging freedom of religion (etc.), and there is a well-established doctrine of the separation of church and state, there can be issues when only one religion gets play in one area, and the school is state-funded.

I speak as a minority member, for when I attended fifth grade I was one of very few Jews in my school. Others got to miss class for Confirmation classes (which, inexplicably, were held during school hours. This was 1971 or so). I did not. A preference? Perhaps not an intentional one but I have little doubt that no one missing all of those classes (and I recall this going on for at least a good month or so) was bumped down a grade.

By intention was it a preference? Probably not. But it ended up having similar results.

Is having but one club a preference? Not necessarily. But when there is one club, and it is heard, and it is during school hours, and a teacher is there (even if s/he is not participating), and others are walking along and peek or hear what is going on, and hear that their faith is somehow inferior and will not get them into heaven, well, it can have a less than optimal effect, yes?

The solution is, generally, to provide equal time. But that also means that students need to be confident enough to ensure that their needs are being met, and their desires for a club are being fulfilled. Schools, of course, do not have unlimited resources -- not enough rooms, not enough persons to monitor the clubs, etc.

It has the potential to become an enormous mess at best.

Sorry but children do not lost their rights to express their religion opinions because they happen to be in a public school.

Nor is there a right not to overhead opinions religion or otherwise held by fellow students that might upset you or your child in a public school.

The issue had been address by both federal law and by the SC and safe guards are in place that the government can not promote a religion not that students are forbidden from talking about their beliefs in or out of a club setting.

Now for fairness try being an atheist not Jewish in the public school system of the 1960s!

They read out of the bible every day at home room period or at least they did on the days I did not hide the bible on the poor teacher.

The world may not be completely fair but it is not the job of the school system to made it so nor would that goal be possible.

Well - none of the children should lose their rights, yes? Even those who are not of the same faith as the practitioners, right?

And BTW, I have no problem thinking atheism. I don't want the Torah in the schools any more than I want the KJV in there. It's not a matter of not wanting Christian teachings in there -- and it's not a matter of my wants, for that matter. It's a matter of the law.

Anyway, I have little doubt that you will come back with something or other and we may or may not end up talking about the same things but it appears we are only glancing off the same points and not hitting them all squarely. I have to eat dinner anyway and, frankly, this argument is lovely but I am done. If the safeguards are in place then that's awesome but schools and people do sometimes ignore same or not interpret them properly. It's why we have a court system in the first place.

Enjoy your last word!

Just to give you all an update on this... I am told by my Major Professor at the University that this type of club meeting -during school hours and run by a school official - is common practice here. She says the same thing everyone around here has said when asked about it. If no one is compelled to go, she thinks its perfectly fine.

From my meager understanding of the law and the kinds of cases that have been brought in the past that are precedents, I think its probably still wrong - by the letter of the law.

But local (read that regional, not just citywide) more and custom is very powerfully for the ability to conduct this kind of thing.

I don't see any avenue or advantage to further pursuing this. In fact, all I see is downside in ever mentioning it to anyone around here at all.

I gotta say though - The lack of just plain old intellectual curiosity around here is striking. There seems to literally be a mass conscious choice not to think about some things. So be it. I won't be here long.

Unfortunately, judges hearing such cases seem to only recognize plaintiffs that have children attending the school involved.

My own feeling is that the establishment clause is being violated because the activity takes place during the regular schoolday in a common area used by all students. Non-Christian students may feel somewhat threatened by this.

If snood was able to overhear what she was telling the students then non-participating students could hear it as well. Even if it's common practice, I think they need a different space in the school and the teacher needs to read up on what restrictions the law places on her role.

That said, there are groups of students who meet with a facilitator during school days here as well; some during an open period, some of them switch the periods around and the kids are excused from class (group therapy, for instance). All such groups meet in a classroom or a separate room in the guidance dept and the adult facilitators are, well, adult facilitators.

That is discouraging. Sure hope it's a shrinking demographic.

Whether or not your assessment is correct, it is certainly a violation in that a teacher is participating. Nevertheless, i agree that Snood should not get involved, because it will just cause him problems, without changing things.

Even without children, snood is paying his taxes that fund the facility during operational hours.

The lack of interest to think about this kind of thing is striking. That, more than any other detail, is what I think is the take away.

A
R
T

First, is this school, public or associated with a religion. secondly, what class is this for, if its a religious topic class or a class in certain other respects, its more understandable. And for those certain people thinking i'm a super Christian, i'm a cultural Jew and Atheist

That shouldn't shock either you or Snood, Art.

It's a public school - part of the Parish (like counties in other states) and State School System. It's a government sanctioned public school, just like all the tens of thousands of other public schools in the country. And the gathering wasn't a class, like some kind of instruction on religion. It was a meeting of a club - a bible club . It was being held during third period, during the school day, and being headed by a teacher at that school.

Advertise for participants in a group to discuss the Koran Snood.
Promote it by saying "only by understanding the enemy can we prevail"