A Bible Club Controversy

Yep Osso, and no matter how long I live, I think I will have trouble with the civil biting of the tongue one seems to have to do to get along in this "free speech" society.

I'm still curious what my clients thought. A little late to ask as that was around 1990. I did see them again, but then I was the on site reviewer (as in 'will they have to fix it to get paid?') re construction/landscape and that was, to use the term again, another bag of beans as it was a large then important project.

The firm was a good one, excellent in practice in a field I could work up a lot of sarcasm about. I understand many chinese but by no means a majority are christian, so they might have been fine with it, or sardonic about it. I took my clients as everyday followers of the money god but not entirely that, since they did care about quality and liked design.

This is by way of saying, I wish I called the aclu myself, not that I had time to get into anything, but at least to talk about it.

Yep - that's how I'm trying to approach this - from the perspective of just being curious about the whole religion in the school issue.

Once more it seem to be settle law that religion clubs of all types are legal and constitutional in public schools.

See my research postings on this thread.

As a European I would like a bit more explanation to the subject.
You have free speach in USA and no religion in schools. Correct?
A club has the right to free speach I guess.
Now you reported a club discussing religion or was the teacher preaching religion?
If it had been a political club discussing politics you did not like, would you have reported that too? I am thinking about extreem political parties.
Would you have reported it if the club was discussing compartive religions or was it because the club was discussing/preaching Christianity?

Clubs are fine and even religion clubs are fine as long as everyone is there of their own free will and the school in question is not showing any favoritism toward any one club.

You can not teach a religion in a public school or show favoritism towards any religion however you can allow school clubs that are religion in nature to form under the same rules as any other school club must follow.

For example, allowing a Christian bible club is fine however that also means that you must allow atheists or new age or devil worshiping clubs to meet on the same level playing field if members of the school community wish to do so.

One interesting aspect is that a teacher is not suppose to be leading such a club or doing anything but monitoring it.

So the club that the subject of this thread does have a right to meet but not with a teacher leading it.


http://www.firstamendmentschools.org/freedoms/case.aspx?id=497

Board of Education of Westside Community Schools v. Mergens, 496 U.S. 226 (1990)

Facts:
Bridget Mergens, a student at Westside High School, requested permission to start a Christian club. Her request was denied, and she filed suit. Ms. Mergens argued that the Equal Access Act required the school to grant her request to form a Christian club. The Act requires that secondary schools allowing "noncurriculum related clubs" to meet must also allow religious and political clubs, as long as they are student-initiated and student-led. The Act also forbids teachers from participating in student religious clubs (except as monitors) and prohibits outside adults from directing, controlling or regularly attending the meetings of a student religious club. School officials argued that the Equal Access Act did not apply to Westside High and that, even if it did, the Act was unconstitutional.

Issue:
Whether the Equal Access Act requirement that schools permitting noncurriculum related clubs must also permit student religious clubs is a violation of the Establishment Clause.

Holding:
In an 8-1 decision, the Court ruled that the Equal Access Act does not violate the Establishment Clause. The purpose of the Act is to avoid discrimination against student religious and political speech. Allowing student religious clubs on the same basis as other student-initiated clubs is equal treatment, not school endorsement of religion.

Reasoning:
The Court found there was no Establishment Clause violation because the Equal Access Act does not promote or endorse religion, but protects student-initiated and student-led meetings. The Court noted the "crucial difference between government speech endorsing religion, which the Establishment clause forbids, and private speech endorsing religion, which the Free Speech and Free Exercise clauses protect."

Majority:
"The broad spectrum of officially recognized student clubs at Westside, and the fact that Westside students are free to initiate and organize additional student clubs, counteract any possible message of official endorsement of or preference for religion or a particular religious belief." (Justice Sandra Day O'Connor)

Dissent:
"Can Congress really have intended to issue an order to every public high school in the nation stating, in substance, that if you sponsor a chess club, a scuba club, or a French club -- without having formal classes in those subjects -- you must also open your doors to every religious, political, or social organization no matter how controversial or distasteful its views may be? I think not." (Justice John Paul Stevens)

Read more about this case at firstamendmentcenter.org:



Westside Community Board of Education v. Mergens

Thank you for your clear explanation.
For me it still sounds very much like black and white. Atheists and religious clubs should not be compared with satanic clubs.
Political clubs whatever teabags, republicans, democrats and greens cannot be compared with neonazis or terror groups. For me it would be natural to forbid the two last ones as clubs or even meetings, wheras the others certainly are ok.
If you allow a bridge club would that mean you could theoretical also allow a gambling club?

I didn't "report" anything. I have simply been asking people (so far here, in the local press, and in the ACLU) about whether or not it is appropriate and legal to be holding a meeting for a bible club during school hours with a faculty member in charge. And yes, if it had been a political meeting (whether I agreed with the politics or not) I think I would have the same objection. If it was a class teaching comparative religions I don't think I'd have an objection.

I thank Bill for his information not you.

I have a feeling that behind your fair question about if it is appropriate and legal there is also something called prejudice.

Although students are not compelled to attend, the club uses public school facilities and meets during the regular school day. If you were a parent of a child at that school, you would have better standing to complain about an endorsement of religion.

I am curious. Did you have a talk with the teacher herself?

Does anyone read the thread before posting?

Once more the SC had already rule 8 to 9 that having such a club meeting in a public school is legal with the exception that a teacher can not lead it and at most can only monitor such clubs meetings.

As Justice Breyer wrote, such cases need to be looked at individually. The facts that snood described differ from the case you mention.

Well, that would make a little sense if I didn't claim Christianity as my own religion, but I have for a long time. This is about basic principles, and since I've worked in this junior high school since September 2010, I have a strong opinion about what kinds of things go on there.

shouldn't every member of the community have equal standing to question this sort of thing?

I know, right? This sounds a little like the kinda snooty reactions I get from some people when they find out I have no biological kids of my own. It's like they immediately dismiss your opinion, or at least relegate it to some lesser degree of importance.

Taking in consideration that there are thousands of Christian denominations and many have prejudice against one another you might have prejudice against the club, which is christian as it might be different to your denomination and you are therefore taking it up as basic principles mixed with your strong opinions.

You misunderstood my statement. Parents of children in that specific school have better standing to raise a legal question about activities at that school.

(The Supreme Court denied a divorced father's case about "under God" in the pledge of allegiance simply because of the fact that he had given up custody of his daughter to his ex-wife.)

I wouldn't have any problem with it. If that's what a kid wanted to spend his/her lunchtime or free period doing, so be it.
If the Jewish kids wanted to meet to read the Torah or learn to speak Hebrew - so what?
If the Muslim kids wanted to study the Koran - so what?

If this is the subject matter that most interests kids and they want to spend time talking with and studying with like-minded kids at school, I totally understand it. It's like all the chess geeks like to hang out together and talk about what most interests them, all the band kids like to hang out and do what they like to do, all the cheerleaders and jocks like to hang out, all the GLTG kids like to hang out and talk about what they have in common.
I don't really get the problem.

or perhaps Snood has identified a problem with mixing church and state (the school)

Snood and I certainly don't agree on everything (ha!), but over the years I've come to respect him as someone who tries to be a thoughtful and observant member of his communities.