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A Bible Club Controversy

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 12:24 pm
Try saying that again in English Bill, you're gettin opaque--probably due to your passionate inability to understand the constitution and simple ratios.
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 12:30 pm
@ehBeth,
For me as northern European, when somebody has strong principals with this subject it sounds like prejudice. We don´t seperate church and school that strongly.
It is better to get kids to find something interesting to do than hang around mobbing, beating one another, watching porno over the mobile phone.
Let them have their clubs and good interestes whatever it is chess, litteratur, music or sports or even religion.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 12:35 pm
@Setanta,
First post:
Quote:
Oh horseshit . . . Don't make **** up.


Second post:

Quote:
Nice attempt to side step while making a snotty remark.


Do you have the foggiest notion of the meaning of hypocrisy, Setanta?

No, really!? You do this sort of thing all the time.


0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 12:37 pm
@saab,
saab wrote:
We don´t seperate church and school that strongly.


stay away from Canada then - we think the U.S. is lax in this area
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 12:38 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
a 8 to 9 SC ruling


let's try it this way ...

eight is less than nine
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 12:48 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
let's try it this way ...

eight is less than nine


Joker there are nine SC judges and the ruling was 8 out of the nine there is not 17 judges on the SC.

Sorry I misspoke but that is silliness that does not change the fact that the law had been upheld by 8 out of the nine setting judges on the court.

One hell of a lot of assholes on this thread and to made the matter far worst as an atheist it is people that I tend to agree with that are being the assholes.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 12:53 pm
@ehBeth,
I don't think that it should be all that difficult for an adult to figure out that Bill means "an 8 of 9 SC ruling"
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 12:55 pm
@ehBeth,
We don´t have Christian instructions anymore in Swedish schools, but the kids are taught religion. So there is a certain seperation of church and state. On the other hand the ceremony for all classes at the end of the year takes place in a church.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 12:55 pm
BillRM wrote:
there is not 17 judges on the SC.


That is almost exactly what I have been trying to tell you. I would change only one word. There are not 17 judges on the SC.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 12:59 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
That is almost exactly what I have been trying to tell you. I would change only one word. There are not 17 judges on the SC.


So we are playing games how nice and how pointless.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 01:05 pm
@BillRM,
Yes, the law was upheld, because it has provisions to assure that the no establishment clause is not violated, in which case, the free exercise clause allows people to engage in religious pursuits without government interference. If you really understood the constitution, if you had really understand the meaning of the ruling you posted, and if you had really understood the text of the law you posted, you'd not need to be told these things. There certainly is one big asshole in this thread.

See if you can absorb this:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

So long as there is no cause to believe that government is establishing religion, government cannot prohibit the free exercise of religion. This is from your post on the Supremes decision:

Quote:
The Court found there was no Establishment Clause violation because the Equal Access Act does not promote or endorse religion, but protects student-initiated and student-led meetings. The Court noted the "crucial difference between government speech endorsing religion, which the Establishment clause forbids, and private speech endorsing religion, which the Free Speech and Free Exercise clauses protect.


Furthermore, this is from the text of the Act which you posted:

Quote:
(1) the meeting is voluntary and student-initiated;
(2) there is no sponsorship of the meeting by the school, the government, or its agents or employees;
(3) employees or agents of the school or government are present at religious meetings only in a nonparticipatory capacity;
(4) the meeting does not materially and substantially interfere with the orderly conduct of educational activities within the school; and
(5) nonschool persons may not direct, conduct, control, or regularly attend activities of student groups.


It is on the basis of this text that the Court upheld the Act.

You display, as usual, not simply your irrational prejudice, but a shallow understanding of the issues involved. Earlier, i made the comment that one might argue that there is a violation, and that is because Snood says that a teacher is involved who is leading the group, and not just monitoring the group. I advise him to be careful about this though, because it could cause him problems, and the teacher would likely just say she was on her own time, and she was not leading the group. He'd be left with his problem, and nothing would have been accomplished.

Yeah, there's at least one huge asshole in this thread, and it's you, Bill.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 01:22 pm
@Setanta,
So once more religion clubs meeting on school grounds making used of the public funds it take to AC and light the building etc is legal.

So in the case that started this thread the only question is that a teacher should not be leading the group not that the club can not meet during school hours and made used of school facility in doing so.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 01:27 pm
@BillRM,
Well I guess that would be my question then. Is the teacher leading the group-did she organize this weekly meeting in the library? Or did the kids get together, say they were Christians meeting in the library to discuss the Bible and other subjects having to do with Christianity and the teacher decided to come along because she was interested?
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 01:37 pm
@aidan,
Quote:
Is the teacher leading the group-did she organize this weekly meeting in the library? Or did the kids get together, say they were Christians meeting in the library to discuss the Bible and other subjects having to do with Christianity and the teacher decided to come along because she was interested?


As I had said either way all the likely outcome of a complain would be is that the teacher would be told she can not take part in such a club except as a monitor in the future.

The school would be on poor ground if it ban the club because the teacher did not follow the rules correctly in setting it up or running it.

The teacher errors does not reduce the rights of the students to have such a club.

Hell we do not even know if the teacher was ever given any guidelines for such a club and therefore treated it as a chess club or whatever.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  4  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 01:41 pm
@aidan,
Another aspect in this is that it took place in the school library during regular hours. Non-Christian students also using the library at that time may feel threatened to hear a school employee proselytizing a Christian interpretation of scripture.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 01:49 pm
@wandeljw,
The teacher should not be involved under the law however if non-Christian students overhear fellow students proselytizing and feel threaten that come under just too bad.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 02:02 pm
@BillRM,
What a clown. That was my point all along. You're hopeless (beside being nearly incoherent).
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 02:03 pm
@aidan,
It wouldn't matter if the teacher is interested. She can only be there to monitor the student group, she cannot participate.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 02:12 pm
@Setanta,
You are the clown in my opinion as I been saying the same thing over and over for this whole thread and you had been the one playing games.

With postings and links to the law and court rulings.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 02:17 pm
@BillRM,
Bite me, idiot. I said that there is arguably a case. Your response was to get all hyserical about the Surpremes' ruling, apparently not at all understanding that if the teacher is actively participating, it violates the Act, which the Supremes upheld. I repeat, you're hopeless.

While you have all this free time on your hands, why don't you devote a significant portion of it learning how to express yourself coherently in what is, ostensibly, your native language?

0 Replies
 
 

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