littlek
 
  2  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2011 08:54 pm
@Butrflynet,
Dear lord..... Make it stop!
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2011 09:11 pm
@Butrflynet,
Butrflynet wrote:
Official confirmation of explosion at reactor 3 and video here:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/14/us-japan-quake-idUSTRE72A0SS20110314


That's the reactor with the second meltdown. Probably caused by hydrogen gas venting from the meltdown, just as hydrogen gas from the first meltdown caused the first explosion.

It's confirmation that the second reactor is indeed having a meltdown, but the explosion shouldn't be anything worse than that.

It'll be nearly impossible for either meltdown to breach containment.

I've heard that they have completely fixed two of the three damaged Daini reactors. And that they've begun pumping seawater into Daiichi reactor #2 (the one between the two meltdowns) despite the fact that it was not one of the five considered to be in danger.

Was just looking for a link for that when I heard about the explosion. I'll post a link when I find one.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2011 09:36 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
I've heard that they have completely fixed two of the three damaged Daini reactors. And that they've begun pumping seawater into Daiichi reactor #2 (the one between the two meltdowns) despite the fact that it was not one of the five considered to be in danger.

Was just looking for a link for that when I heard about the explosion. I'll post a link when I find one.


Here is something that mentions fixing two of the three troubled Daini reactors:

----

"On Monday morning, the company that operates both plants said it had restored the cooling systems at two of three reactors experiencing problems at Daini. That would leave a total of four reactors at the two plants with pumping difficulties."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/world/asia/14nuclear.html

----

Five troubled reactors, minus two now fixed, doesn't equal four -- so I'm guessing that the extra one is the one that I mentioned they started pumping seawater into despite it not being counted as having problems before this.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2011 09:38 pm
@oralloy,
I just read this:

"Officials confirmed on Sunday that three nuclear reactors north of Tokyo were at risk of overheating, raising fears of an uncontrolled radiation leak."

3?

OMFG!!

NY Times reports:

"Experts in Japan and the United States said that the releases from nuclear plants could go on for weeks or months. Officials are also reporting a new explosion."

Japanese Stock exchange (Nikkei) is down 4.5%
Three biggest Japanese car makers are suspending production.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2011 09:47 pm
@oralloy,
Here is something about seawater for the #2 reactor (between the two meltdowns).

It says they are considering it, but haven't done so yet:


Quote:
In an effort to prevent a meltdown, engineers had flooded this reactor — unit 1 — with seawater after its cooling system failed. The lack of electrical power has kept water pumps from circulating enough water through the reactor core.

On Sunday, engineers flooded the unit 3 reactor. Officials said they may pump in seawater into yet another, unit 2, as well.

http://www.npr.org/2011/03/13/134501905/crisis-at-nuclear-plant-adds-to-japans-woes
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2011 09:51 pm
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:
I just read this:

"Officials confirmed on Sunday that three nuclear reactors north of Tokyo were at risk of overheating, raising fears of an uncontrolled radiation leak."

3?

OMFG!!


No matter how many have a meltdown, there is little chance of a huge radiation leak. The containment domes in western-style reactors are "robust".
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2011 09:55 pm
@oralloy,
Apparently, once they use seawater to cool a reactor it's done, no reusing anything. That is assuming there is no explosion or meltdown, but seawater creates other problems or chemical reactions. If they had used fresh water things would be different but seeing as that it, fresh water, is at a premium and there is no electricty because of the reactor issues, they have no choice.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2011 10:20 pm
@Ceili,
Also, because all the plumbing and water mains that would bring in fresh water are all broken they must be unable to get much fresh water in.

Pumping seawater corrodes the pipes inside the reactor buildings, rendering them useless for reuse in future.

Spraying seawater also seems to cause an explosion that somehow creates excess Hydrogen..etc. I'm now physics expert. It's all Greek to me. I seem to recall that explanation aftrer the first explosion a few days ago
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2011 10:29 pm
@oralloy,
This morning officials described #1 reactor as having a partial meltdown. They described it this morning using a scale from 0 to 7 as being at level 4. I have no idea what it means or if it is stable now.

On NY Times just now I read this:
"Operators fear that if they cannot establish control, despite increasingly desperate measures to do so, the reactors could experience full meltdowns, which would release catastrophic amounts of radiation. "

"The two reactors where the explosions occurred are both presumed to have already suffered partial meltdowns — a dangerous situation that, if unchecked, could lead to a full meltdown.

The reactors are both at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station, where another reactor is also having difficulties."


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/world/asia/14nuclear.html
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2011 11:14 pm
@Ceili,
Ceili wrote:
Apparently, once they use seawater to cool a reactor it's done, no reusing anything. That is assuming there is no explosion or meltdown, but seawater creates other problems or chemical reactions. If they had used fresh water things would be different but seeing as that it, fresh water, is at a premium and there is no electricty because of the reactor issues, they have no choice.


That's why I'm presuming that they won't use seawater unless they absolutely have to, and thus the potential use in the third reactor is a sign that that one might be in more trouble than we thought.

On the other hand, they've already decided to close that reactor complex, so maybe the use of seawater is less of an issue than it would be in a plant they'd be planning to keep open.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2011 11:15 pm
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:
Spraying seawater also seems to cause an explosion that somehow creates excess Hydrogen..etc. I'm now physics expert. It's all Greek to me. I seem to recall that explanation aftrer the first explosion a few days ago


During a meltdown, the zirconium in the fuel cladding binds with the oxygen in the coolant water, which frees the hydrogen atoms from the water to form hydrogen gas.

The hydrogen gas is vented from the containment dome to protect it, and if venting hydrogen gas is accidentally ignited, it explodes.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2011 11:16 pm
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:
This morning officials described #1 reactor as having a partial meltdown. They described it this morning using a scale from 0 to 7 as being at level 4. I have no idea what it means or if it is stable now.

On NY Times just now I read this:
"Operators fear that if they cannot establish control, despite increasingly desperate measures to do so, the reactors could experience full meltdowns, which would release catastrophic amounts of radiation. "

"The two reactors where the explosions occurred are both presumed to have already suffered partial meltdowns — a dangerous situation that, if unchecked, could lead to a full meltdown.

The reactors are both at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station, where another reactor is also having difficulties."


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/world/asia/14nuclear.html


A full meltdown will only release a catastrophic amount of radiation if containment is breached. Not much chance of a containment breach in a western-style reactor.
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2011 01:40 am
Another quake on the west side of Japan... those poor people are getting hit on both sides by quakes.

Magnitude 5.4 - NEAR THE WEST COAST OF HONSHU, JAPAN
2011 March 14 06:18:26 UTC


Earthquake Details

* This event has been reviewed by a seismologist.

Magnitude 5.4
Date-Time

* Monday, March 14, 2011 at 06:18:26 UTC
* Monday, March 14, 2011 at 03:18:26 PM at epicenter
* Time of Earthquake in other Time Zones

Location 38.037°N, 138.394°E
Depth 35.4 km (22.0 miles)
Region NEAR THE WEST COAST OF HONSHU, JAPAN
Distances 59 km (36 miles) WNW of Niigata, Honshu, Japan
155 km (96 miles) N of Nagano, Honshu, Japan
172 km (106 miles) W of Yamagata, Honshu, Japan
288 km (178 miles) NNW of TOKYO, Japan
High Seas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2011 02:38 am
@Butrflynet,
Japan and the Russian Far East (portion of Russia east of Siberia) belong to the North American plate, not to Eurasia; the Pacific plate is crashing against both.
http://www.extremescience.com/graphics/plate-tectonics-map-usgs.jpg
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2011 03:57 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
A full meltdown will only release a catastrophic amount of radiation if containment is breached. Not much chance of a containment breach in a western-style reactor.

True. Fukushima 3 is a boiling water reactor with Mark I containment (like 1 and 2) but 3 has 6% MOX, whence the extra concern about containment failure in case of core melt. I don't know enough about potential degradation of 3 to tell if Sandia's simulations apply here. At least the winds remain W, SW.
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/nuregs/contract/cr6920/cr6920.pdf
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2011 04:01 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Ceili wrote:
Apparently, once they use seawater to cool a reactor it's done, no reusing anything. That is assuming there is no explosion or meltdown, but seawater creates other problems or chemical reactions. If they had used fresh water things would be different but seeing as that it, fresh water, is at a premium and there is no electricty because of the reactor issues, they have no choice.


That's why I'm presuming that they won't use seawater unless they absolutely have to, and thus the potential use in the third reactor is a sign that that one might be in more trouble than we thought.

On the other hand, they've already decided to close that reactor complex, so maybe the use of seawater is less of an issue than it would be in a plant they'd be planning to keep open.


I guess I was right to presume that talk of using seawater in a third reactor was a sign that things were really bad in that reactor.

Unit #2 is very close to following units #1 and #3 into meltdown.

LINK
High Seas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2011 04:38 am
@oralloy,
Sorry but your link - who publishes "Eurasia Review"?! - doesn't seem very reliable. It states the reactors were damaged by the earthquake; that's not true - the tsunami caused the problems by flooding the basements where they kept (probably foolishly, since they're on the seaside) the standby generators. Batteries in stock only ran for an hour or so - another item to fix in future, get long-life batteries. But what really bothered me in that article was this bit:
Quote:
In Russia’s Far Eastern Sakhalin Region, located just 10km (6 miles) from Fukushima
Not on any map known to anyone else:
http://www.shunya.net/Pictures/Japan/japan-map.jpg
farmerman
 
  4  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2011 05:10 am
@High Seas,
The earthquake was at a "triple point" where three plates converge with several resultant strain vectors. The earthquake was off shore but the long period duration of the shaking was as important as the severity(liquifaction dangers). I believe that the nuke site had undergone some soil liquifaction which resulted in whatever damage it is experiencing. I have only been following the news and havent looked any deeper into this mess, Ive been recouping from sinusitis that was all over the place down in NAwlins.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2011 05:16 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
Sorry but your link - who publishes "Eurasia Review"?! - doesn't seem very reliable.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/14/japan-quake-rods-idUSTKB00733720110314

(Reuters) - Nuclear fuel rods at a quake-stricken Japanese nuclear reactor are now fully exposed, Jiji news agency said, quoting the plant's operator, Tokyo Eletcric Power Co .

The report referred to the Fukushima Daiichi complex's No.2 reactor, where levels of water coolant around the reactor core had been reported as falling earlier in the day.
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2011 05:21 am
@oralloy,
Thank you - but Reuters at least gets its maps right. I'm glad Farmerman joined the thread as "soil liquefaction" is news to me - had to look up what it meant.

 

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