hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2011 01:02 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Here's a great piece, that gives the lie to the idea that Walker is any sort of 'fiscal conservative.' He doesn't give a **** about the budget at all; like other so-called Hawks on the right wing, the only things he cares about are low taxes for rich folks and businesses. Period.
Well, either that or they believe what they say they believe when they say that business builds America, not government. The take away from the prank call is that Walker says in private the same thing that he says in public...that he seems to be a true believer.

I dont agree, but I also am not up to calling these guys evil scum bags because I dont agree with them.
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2011 01:04 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Stromberg does say, though, that 'at least in Wisconsin a future legislature could repeal it'. When he mentions what happened in California, I think he's referring to a constitutional measure and not just a bill.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2011 01:05 pm
@hawkeye10,
Well it build the wealth of the top one or two percent that is true.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2011 01:45 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I repeat: if you think the above piece was propaganda, tell us what was wrong with the facts presented within it or the logic used to form the writers' opinion. That would actually be an interesting conversation! As opposed to, well, whatever this is that you're putting forward.
Cycloptichorn


It doesn't take much discernment to note that what you posted was one sided propaganda. Life is too short to debate such nonsense. I wouldn't find the drill interesting at all.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2011 01:48 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Well it build the wealth of the top one or two percent that is true.
Other than to quibble about the percent I agree. But here is the thing, those of us on the left tend to assume that those on the right who are trying to bring more power to businesses and depower government are scamming to line their pockets. However, I have gotten to know some hard core righties pretty well and I swear to you that many of them believe what they say they believe. They dont think that they are fighting to loot for themselves, they think that they are fighting to fix America.

I dont think that they will ever convince me that business needs more power, though they do tend to gain a lot of credibility with me when they rail against abuses at the hands of the corporate class and the dangers of globalization. Also, I have over the last years decided that they are right about the need to depower government, to returning power to the citizen. I think that those of us on the left can find enough common cause with the right to put down our pitchforks and start working together on the things that we agree on....for the sake of our kids, who to this point we have completely fucked over. We on the left have a rich tradition of caring about the liberty of the citizen, about empowering free will, taking a hatchet to a government that has become overly intrusive and overly coercive should be right up our alley. Defunding and shrinking government is good for us all, left, right and center.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2011 03:32 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Editor's note: Rick Fantasia is the Barbara Richmond 1940 Professor in the Social Sciences and Professor of Sociology at Smith College in Northampton, Massachusetts. He writes frequently for Le Monde Diplomatique and is the author, with Kim Voss, of "Hard Work: Remaking the American Labor Movement." and "Cultures of Solidarity."


(CNN) -- There should be no illusions. What is unfolding in Wisconsin and a half-dozen other states may be the beginning of the end for American labor.
Both the corporate leaders who are funding these initiatives and their Republican Party valets feverishly trying to push them through state legislatures understand this. The billionaire Koch brothers, for example, have pumped money into the Wisconsin effort; their energy and consumer products conglomerate was a top contributor to Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker's election campaign.

They must be giddy with anticipation, knowing how close they are to their long-standing goal of removing any significant opposition to their rule in American society. Too dramatic? If anything, it is an understatement.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/02/24/fantasia.union.wisconsin/index.html?hpt=C2

The beginning of the end of organized labor happened a long time ago, otherwise this is right. The beginning was way back when southern Democrats put in place anti-union laws, and then loured industry south with their cheaper labor.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2011 04:55 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Suggesting once more you go to the library and check out a few economic books dealing with the subject.
AS usual you are making assumptions. Are you an expert on economic matters ?

Quote:
With the growth of the economic since WW2 it is small change indeed Second note our national debt compare to GNP was far bigger after the revolution war then now for example.
When you read some of these books you want me to take out, you might realise the capacity for expansion is more important . I tend to think that was greater then . But I would be interested in the modest opinion of a shy expert like yourself, who never criticises without knowing the facts .

Quote:
National debt is a normal part of running any nation state and had always been so.
That's rather lacking in imagination. Do you borrow from your children and tell them they can borrow from their children ? That it is a normal way to do things ?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2011 04:58 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
It doesn't take much discernment to note that what you posted was one sided propaganda.

It doesn't take much discernment to note you dont want anyone getting at your retirement money . To hell with others, right ?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2011 05:10 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I repeat: if you think the above piece was propaganda, tell us what was wrong with the facts presented within it or the logic used to form the writers' opinion. That would actually be an interesting conversation! As opposed to, well, whatever this is that you're putting forward.
Cycloptichorn


It doesn't take much discernment to note that what you posted was one sided propaganda. Life is too short to debate such nonsense. I wouldn't find the drill interesting at all.


A retreat from the field. I understand tactically why you would make that choice at this time. But don't think that anyone's fooled.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2011 06:59 pm
So the new leftist demagoguery, apparently, is collective bargaining 'rights'. There is, of course, no such right. The proof of this is found in The National Labor Relations Act and, even more germane, The Public Employee Collective Bargaining Act passed by the Wisconsin legislature in 1959. These are simply statutes and not constitutional amendments. Like all such acts, such as social security, what the legislature gives the legislature may take away...just like ethanol subsidies for that matter.

The left won't mention it but Walker's proposal doesn't even touch collective bargaining privileges of private sector unions. Why? Well, simply because it doesn't have to. The legislative proposal addresses a concern that differs from that in the private sector. Private firms are in the business of making a profit and therefore are an effective force to check the natural (human) tendency of any financial overreach of its employees, whether they be union members or not. Likewise, organized unions can be seen as a check on the same tendency of over zealous management. In the private sector unions are also checked by the fact that the company they are bargaining with may decide to go away, either geographically or existentially.

Such is not the case for public sector unions. The imbalance between the unions and the management (politicians) of federal, state, and local governments goes further. What happens when 'management' bargains with someone else's money? What happens with labor negotiations between GM, Chrysler and the UAW in the future will be interesting but what if the union got to actually choose the management who would then know their job security depends on how the union feels about the outcome of said negotiations? Well, what happens is New York, California, New Jersey, Illinois, and now Wisconsin like financial meltdowns. Reports that these financial problems are simply ginned up to kill unions are about as credible as Truther claims. Such efforts are irresponsible when we Americans are trying to solve these serious financial state and federal problems.

So we see the leftist comedy (in the traditional theatrical sense) has now given us the beginning of an almost Seinfeldian story thread involving Wisconsin (and now Indianan) Democratic Party legislators (Fleebaggers?) fleeing their homes and states along with their legislative,nay, patriotic and civic duty. One can only wonder how the left would have labeled the GOP federal legislators, given a similar choice, and, subsequently, abandoning the Capital for, say Cancun, in an effort to demonstrate 'solidarity' with the American public's anger against Obamacare. Such principled acts of Democratic principles could bring tears to patriotic eyes if warranted but Michael Barone gives a much simpler explanation for these AWOL legislators:
Quote:
"Walker was staging “an assault on unions,” he [President Obama] said, and added that “public employee unions make enormous contributions to our states and our citizens.”
Enormous contributions, yes — to the Democratic party and the Obama campaign. Unions, most of whose members are public employees, gave Democrats some $400 million in the 2008 election cycle. The American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees, the biggest public-employee union, gave Democrats $90 million in the 2010 cycle.

“Follow the money,” Washington reporters like to say. The money in this case comes from taxpayers, present and future, who are the source of every penny of dues paid to public-employee unions — who in turn spend much of that money on politics, almost all of it for Democrats. In effect, public-employee unions are a mechanism by which every taxpayer is forced to fund the Democratic party.
Emphasis mine--JM

I believe, if the country is fortunate, this Seinfeld episode of Hope and Change, Pragmistic reality, and WTF (Win The Freedom, of course) moments will come to its pinnacled end and give us a better, stronger America. The left has miscalculated badly and done so with its usual litany of mis-directions (class wars, identity politics, name calling, etc.). Obama and his leftist allies have now nationalized another local issue. A number of union leaders want him to come to Wisconsin. He should go. Imagine President Obama standing there amidst those signs of images of 'Hitler' and 'crosshairs' trying to convince unemployed voting Americans that the special 6.9% of those still employed that are in the public sector unions should get just one more raise and one more paid sick day while the rest of America dutifully pays more taxes... if they are still working, so that this privileged minority can be so appeased.

Barack,"I owe these guys", Obama and his leftist buddies ignored the American people and they got "shellacked" in the 2010 elections if they continue their ways they will lose even more in 2012.

JM
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2011 07:07 pm
@JamesMorrison,
JM, Good post to provide some balance to this issue.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2011 08:18 pm
@JamesMorrison,
Quote:
Barack,"I owe these guys", Obama and his leftist buddies ignored the American people and they got "shellacked" in the 2010 elections if they continue their ways they will lose even more in 2012.


Sorry the reason that Obama got shellacked was that he was not able to fixed the mess that Bush let the country economic in during his 8 years in less then two years.

With a secondary reason being that the mouth breathing tea parties types do tend to vote more in off years elections then the more sane population.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2011 08:24 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Sorry the reason that Obama got shellacked was that he was not able to fixed the mess that Bush let the country economic in during his 8 years in less then two years.
I know one guy who did not pay attention....Obama got shellacked because the the vast majority of people dont think that Obama cares about the right things....a secondary but important problem is that his actions dont match up with his words.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2011 08:31 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I know one guy who did not pay attention....Obama got shellacked because the the vast majority of people dont think that Obama cares about the right things....a secondary but important problem is that his action dont match up with his words.


Sorry I do not agree this is the same type of thing that happen on a smaller scale as when a school board somewhere is taken over by right wings anti-science nuts because they get their small percent of the voters to the poll.

In the end the nuts do things that wake up the larger public and they ended up being voted overwhelmingly out of office at the next election.

The governor of the great state of Wisconsin by attacking unions is giving the sane people a wake up call to get to the damn polls and get these nuts out of office.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2011 08:37 pm
Stephen Colbert on Wisconsin:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/375040/february-22-2011/a-less-perfect-union?xrs=share_fb
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2011 09:34 pm
Quote:
Just Not Smart
Josh Marshall | February 24, 2011, 9:24PM

I said a few days ago that I didn't think this drama was wearing well for Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker (R). And subsequent events have really confirmed me in that opinion. Any victory at this point would, I think, be pyrrhic.

But here's the thing. It's not just that -- I think -- Walker overreached. It's actually more than that. Early on, from a position of relative strength, he could have compromised and really had his cake and eat it too.

At the original point of breakdown, after the Dems hit and road and the unions agreed to all the financial concessions, he had his chance. He could have said, fine. You gave important concessions. I still think the changes in bargaining are right. But these are tough times. And we have to move forward together. Blah, blah, blah.

As a Republican governor in tough economic times he would have pocketed big concessions from the unions. And then, I think, he would have garnered some real credit at least from a lot of independent voters. I suspect he would have gotten a bump in those polls he's already taken a hit in.

No doubt he would have caught some grief from the national right -- as Scott in Florida and Daniels in Indiana have. But those aren't the folks he needs to be successful in Wisconsin.
And over time, I think it would have worked well for him across the board.

At the outset the Dems decision to bail looked bold but ultimately a move based on weakness. He looked powerful. They didn't. It was a good time to strike a deal. From strength. But appearances were deceiving. Because Walker had already lost the initiative. Once they left there was nothing he could do. Literally. In the specific dynamics of this situation there was no action under his control that he could take to advance or resolve the crisis. And as things escalated, that made him look weak. Even vaguely ridiculous. If he gives in now, the stakes are so high, it'll just seem obvious that he got totally rolled.

I don't know if that's going to happen. Maybe a few of the Dems will give in tomorrow and he'll get what he wants. But, as I said, I think at this point I think even a victory would be pyrrhic. A recall next year looks like a really strong possibility. And I don't think he's going to get that victory at all.


http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/02/just_not_smart.php#more?ref=fpblg

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2011 10:11 pm
Quote:
A Capitol staffer who asked not to be named said most Capitol insiders agree that predictions of a drop of about $900 million in state aid to K12 public schools as well as permitted revenue limits of negative $500 per student are probably correct. The drop in both state aid and the reduction in revenue limits per student is without precedent. In the past, revenue limits per student have annually increased by about $200 each year.
In Milwaukee, school district officials have heard that the governor is also considering refusing federal Title 1 funds aimed at helping poor children in state schools. For this school year, Milwaukee has received almost $77.5 million in Title 1 funding. The possibility that the governor is considering rejecting the federal money created quite a ruckus in Milwaukee when it was suggested by Milwaukee's School Board President Michael Bond earlier this week and reported here by the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.
http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/education/blog/article_80ad54c2-4089-11e0-88b3-001cc4c03286.html

It seems as though teachers have a bigger problem then the size of their paychecks and what bargaining rights they have....a great many might have no paycheck at all soon...
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2011 01:55 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
It seems as though teachers have a bigger problem then the size of their paychecks and what bargaining rights they have....a great many might have no paycheck at all soon...


Once more Hawkeye do you think that by refusing to take federal funding and therefore harming the education of the state children is going to be of aid to the good governor future or the GOP future in power in Wisconsin?

The word recall elections keep coming into my mind.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2011 02:57 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Once more Hawkeye do you think that by refusing to take federal funding and therefore harming the education of the state children is going to be of aid to the good governor future or the GOP future in power in Wisconsin
This is a guy who has already turned away $810 million that was supposed to go to rail, AFTER the city of Milwaukee ponied up over $20 million to buy and refurbish the former Tower Automotive plant primarily intended to be the national base for Talgo which was supposed to built the trains (they have already announced that they are leaving now). I am not clear on why Title One money would not be wanted, but if anyone will turn it down and put teachers out of work it would be Walker. The man is on a mission, and I dont get the sense that he intends to have a long career as Gov.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2011 03:07 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The man is on a mission, and I dont get the sense that he intends to have a long career as Gov.


I would suggest if the GOP wish for any future in the state that they better short stop him themselves instead of supporting him.
 

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