georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2011 06:54 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

And yet the press is filled with stories of unfunded public sector pension had health care obligations that are concentrated in stated with public sector unions.

Gosh ! Perhaps we're all wrong !

You are because you are missing cause and effect. The reason the pensions are unfunded is that the governments involved did not fund them. Private companies are legally obligated to fund their pensions so they have been funding as they go instead of allowing the problem to build so they can cut taxes.


Oh ! Now I understand. All the states have to do is raise taxes and everything will be OK. Still, I'm curious, why didn't they raise their taxes when they unionized the state workforces and bargained away all those pension and benefit increases?
BillRM
 
  7  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2011 08:52 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Oh ! Now I understand. All the states have to do is raise taxes and everything will be OK. Still, I'm curious, why didn't they raise their taxes when they unionized the state workforces and bargained away all those pension and benefit increases?


[RAISED!!!!~
RAISED!!!!!!
RAISED TAXES!!!!!!!!!


There is no nice way of saying this but the asshole Wisconsin governor lower repeat lower business taxes by 1.5 billion or so in the last few months.

What strange drug driven universe do you happen to live in?

Are you popping drugs with Rush?


0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2011 09:54 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

engineer wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

And yet the press is filled with stories of unfunded public sector pension had health care obligations that are concentrated in stated with public sector unions.

Gosh ! Perhaps we're all wrong !

You are because you are missing cause and effect. The reason the pensions are unfunded is that the governments involved did not fund them. Private companies are legally obligated to fund their pensions so they have been funding as they go instead of allowing the problem to build so they can cut taxes.


Oh ! Now I understand. All the states have to do is raise taxes and everything will be OK. Still, I'm curious, why didn't they raise their taxes when they unionized the state workforces and bargained away all those pension and benefit increases?


Is this a serious question? It's because the jerks in the Republican party believe that the tax equation in America is a one-way ratchet! They demonize any and all tax raises as bad, no matter what the overall situation is. You get guys like Norquist who strong-arm your politicians in pledging to never raise taxes - no matter what! And they sign it. The social pressure on Republicans to be against any and all taxes at all times is ridiculous.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2011 10:14 pm
Quote:
After a week of upheaval in Madison, Wis., where the thumping din of protesters has turned almost celebratory, the battle moved to Ohio, where the Legislature held hearings on a bill that would effectively end collective bargaining for state workers and drastically reduce it for local government employees like police officers and firefighters.

Several thousand pro-union protesters filled a main hall of the state courthouse in Columbus and gathered in a large crowd outside, chanting “Kill the bill,” waving signs and playing drums and bagpipes. There were no official estimates, but the numbers appeared to be smaller than those in Madison last week. One Democratic state legislator put the figure at 15,000.

In Indiana, nearly all of the Democratic members of the state’s House of Representatives stayed away from a legislative session on Tuesday in an effort to stymie a bill that they say would weaken collective bargaining. By late Tuesday, they seemed to have succeeded in running down a clock on the bill, which was to expire at midnight. Representative Brian Bosma, the speaker of the Indiana House, said the bill would die when the deadline passed.

Fleeing was not an option for Ohio Democrats because the Republicans had enough members on their side for a quorum. Republicans have a 23-to-10 majority in the Ohio Senate, and the bill needs 17 votes to pass. It was not clear when it would be voted on.

The bills have amounted to the largest assault on collective bargaining in recent memory, labor experts said, striking at the heart of an American labor movement that is already atrophied.

“I think we are looking at the future of the labor movement being defined in rotundas in several states,” said Harley Shaiken, a professor at University of California, Berkeley, specializing in labor issues. “This is a structural change with profound repercussions.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/us/23ohio.html?hp

We will see, but so far it looks like this hunt to kill unions is going very well. Many guys like me were saying 20 years that labor was in trouble, needed to reform, but they did not and this might be the end of the line. Once they lose the ability to throw $75 million a year at politicians their influence is over.

Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2011 10:36 pm
I think it is all going to be academic history unless you get your national debt under control .
cicerone imposter
 
  6  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2011 10:48 pm
@hawkeye10,
Kinda reminds me of the Reagan era when he fired all the controllers.

Isn't it the conservatives who keeps telling us they believe in less government intrusion?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2011 11:37 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Kinda reminds me of the Reagan era when he fired all the controllers.
In one way in particular...the unions never saw it coming. In both cases there was chit chat about someone who is anti union was coming into office but the union bosses thought that the worse that could happen was a little trouble. The unions did not expect that their opponent would go balls to the wall to destroy them. Reagan was victorious...Walker might well be as well. The unexpected attack is often used to success.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2011 11:52 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
When the congressional Republicans' attack on the board is considered alongside the union-busting offensives of Republican governors, it's clear that a working majority of the Republican Party is bent on abolishing unions. As union membership has declined to a mere 6.9 percent of the private-sector workforce, resentment toward unionized public-sector workers, who have retained the benefits that private-sector workers had when they were unionized, has grown - creating a political opportunity for Republicans to mount their assault. But why bother to defund the NLRB when private-sector unionism is so low?

The answer is that unions remain the most effective part of the Democratic coalition in turning out minority voters come election time and in getting working-class whites to vote Democratic. As such, they are the linchpin of progressive change in America. Taking them off the political map isn't about budgets. It's about removing a check on right-wing and business power in America.

As Cantor once suggested, even if he didn't mean it, unions are a necessary part of any functioning democracy. Not that that seems to matter to today's Republican Party.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/22/AR2011022205852.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

I am fully believing that this is a corporate class backed effort run through the GOP to end Labor once and for all. It very well might work.
BillRM
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 05:48 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
am fully believing that this is a corporate class backed effort run through the GOP to end Labor once and for all. It very well might work.


No it not going to work and in fact is going to cause the GOP to loss control of a numbers of Western states.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 05:52 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
think it is all going to be academic history unless you get your national debt under control .


Under no economic theory I had ever hear of is this the time to be worrying about the national debt.
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 07:41 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

engineer wrote:

You are because you are missing cause and effect. The reason the pensions are unfunded is that the governments involved did not fund them. Private companies are legally obligated to fund their pensions so they have been funding as they go instead of allowing the problem to build so they can cut taxes.


Oh ! Now I understand. All the states have to do is raise taxes and everything will be OK. Still, I'm curious, why didn't they raise their taxes when they unionized the state workforces and bargained away all those pension and benefit increases?

That is an excellent question that has come up before on several tax threads. We are in a situation where if the government has excess, they fund tax cuts instead of funding pensions or saving for a rainy day. If the government has deficits, they attempt tax cuts to provide "stimulus". This means they end up cutting taxes in all situations and develop an unsustainable budget situation. Illionis recently finally sucked it up and raised taxes to bring them back in line with normal tax rates and it made national news headlines.
georgeob1
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 09:40 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

That is an excellent question that has come up before on several tax threads. We are in a situation where if the government has excess, they fund tax cuts instead of funding pensions or saving for a rainy day. If the government has deficits, they attempt tax cuts to provide "stimulus". This means they end up cutting taxes in all situations and develop an unsustainable budget situation. Illionis recently finally sucked it up and raised taxes to bring them back in line with normal tax rates and it made national news headlines.


That's at least an honest answer, but a misguided one in my view. The state of Illinois is more a sadly comical example of corrupt, incompetent government than a model for others: its actions are certainly the exception to the rule for the many states facing budget crises today. Most others are attempting to correct the root causes of their runaway costs.

Moreover, there were no prior tax cuts in Illinois , so your proposed model doesn't fit them. The fact is the economy there faces continued challenges and the tax increases recently enacted are very likely to exacerbate an already adverse trend. Indeed Chicago appears in many ways to be starting to face the declines that have already undone other formerly prosperous midwest cities. I think a better case can be made for the proposition that Illinois has not yet recovered from the corruption of the recent past and that it has made an unwise choice in this instance.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 10:46 am
@georgeob1,
If that is true, most governments are corrupt, because most are in dire financial straits. How many has any surplus?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  4  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 11:20 am
A prank caller got Gov. Walker on the phone yesterday, by claiming he was David Koch. The results were fun to listen to.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/walker_office_confirms_governor_fell_for_koch_pran.php?ref=fpblg

Not that much different than what he says in private, other than the fact that he admits that his goal is to 'crush the union the way Reagan crushed the Air Traffic controllers.'

Puts the lie to any pretense that this has anything to do with the budget at all. Walker is simply trying to destroy institutions he doesn't like.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 11:33 am
From a comment I read on Balloon Juice today:

Quote:
Am I the only person who thinks that even if there isn’t a larger more sympathetic feeling towards unions in the country as a result of the current actions of various GOP governors that just the loss of votes from union households might be disastrous for the GOP in 2012. Most everything I see suggests that in national races Democrats don’t currently pick up even 60% of union household votes. If that were to go from small minority as it is now to 2:1 split or worse isn’t that really, really bad for Republicans.`

I’m just trying to see their long game here.


That got me thinking - how do Union members vote in national elections? Could this have imlications for the GOP in 2012?

I found this:

http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/2/4/2/9/1/pages242917/p242917-2.php

Which claims that "In the last three decades, about 35% to 50% of the union members voted for the Republican presidential candidates." Bush in 2000, for example, captured 40% of the vote.

Which leads me to think that the commenter above was correct. This is a dangerous game for the Republican party to be playing right now and I suspect the National party people know it. Losing in 2012 basically ends all hope of repealing anything Obama has done so far; is it worth it to stir up the opponents' base at this time, over ideological battles that polling shows most people don't support?

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 11:51 am
This graphic accompanies the Gallup poll I listed a few pages back, but breaks down the poll into demographics:

http://www.balloon-juice.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/gallup_poll.gif

The concept that Independents support what's going on in WI simply is not supported by any data whatsoever, on either the local or national level.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 12:06 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

The concept that Independents support what's going on in WI simply is not supported by any data whatsoever, on either the local or national level.

Cycloptichorn


It is certainly not supported by the data you provided - as you say, but you have offered no basis for anyone to believe there "is no data whatsoever" suggesting independents favor restricting union monopolies on a share of worker's wages.

We will both have to wait to see what unfolds in Wisconsin, but right now it looks as though the draft legislation regarding public employee unions in Wisconsin will pass. That plus the fact that a draft right to work law, like those that have existed in about 22 other states for the past 40+ years is being considered in Michigan, the former bastion of the UAW and the American labor movement, is a telling fact concerning public attituded towards labor unions.

There is generally a lot more to the detection of trends in this country than just the poll data you rely on so avidly.
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 12:14 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

The concept that Independents support what's going on in WI simply is not supported by any data whatsoever, on either the local or national level.

Cycloptichorn


It is certainly not supported by the data you provided - as you say, but you have offered no basis for anyone to believe there "is no data whatsoever" suggesting independents favor restricting union monopolies on a share of worker's wages.


Well, YOU certainly haven't presented that data or ANY data, have you! Laughing

You can't expect to be taken seriously with comments like this, George. In the absence of data supporting a position it's perfectly accurate to say that there is no data that supports that position.

And if you think I'm wrong - that data does exist that supports that position - prove it. I dare ya.

Quote:
We will both have to wait to see what unfolds in Wisconsin, but right now it looks as though the draft legislation regarding public employee unions in Wisconsin will pass.


Why is it any closer to passing today than it was before? Do you know the specifics of what's going on in WI at all? It seems to me that the odds are no greater now than they were last week, and significantly lower, in fact.

The Gov. is severely hampered by not only the massive public outcry in the state against his plan, but by the fact that the Senate majority leader refuses to split out the collective bargaining changes into a separate bill and vote on that without the Democrats. They could have done that and passed the whole thing last week. When your own top political allies refuse to take actions that would end the crisis in your favor, it's not a sign of strength.

Specific details and facts inform my opinions; what informs yours? I'd really like to know.

Quote:
The very fact that a draft right to work law, like those that have existed in about 22 other states for the past 40+ years is being considered in Michigan, the former bastion of the UAW and the American labor movement, is a telling fact concerning public attituded towards labor unions.


Republicans are always considering stupid ****. Why is now any different?

Quote:
There is generally a lot more to the detection of trends in this country than just the poll data you rely on so avidly.


Sure - there's opinion, with nothing informing it. Not too interesting to discuss opinions, though.

Those 'right to work' states that you list? I should point out that their statistics on education are typically rock-bottom. How do you address the fact that the states who lack unionization in their teacher force consistently churn out students with lower levels of achievement?

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 12:17 pm
http://www.indystar.com/article/20110223/NEWS05/102230396/Indiana-Senate-leader-says-right-to-work-bill-is-dead?odyssey=tab|mostpopular|text|FRONTPAGE

Indiana Senate leader says right-to-work bill is dead

This 'movement' sure isn't spreading to other states the way that Conservatives were hoping it would, is it?

A defeat on this issue will be a huge loss for the Republicans, because - foolishly - they put themselves way on the line over an ideological issue that the public simply doesn't support as strongly as they convinced themselves they would.

Cycloptichorn
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 12:39 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
This 'movement' sure isn't spreading to other states the way that Conservatives were hoping it would, is it?

The effort is to weaken the unions , ending collective bargaining is only one piece, and this effort has been underway for a matter of weeks. A year from now we MIGHT be able to have a meaningful discussion about how effective the right has been in this effort.
0 Replies
 
 

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