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Illuminati

 
 
Ali phil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 01:37 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Well,

But to me who doesn't believe in the word of god, seeing how these religious ideas were developed by people over generations and passed along trade routes is more than a coincidence.



Logically Indeed.
But Its very different to Christianity which was delibratly changed to apiese the occupants of the roman empire.
Where as since the Qu'ran was revealed no changes have been made to one word, the result of a very dilibrate ideal in keeping it the way it was supposed to be.
0 Replies
 
Ali phil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 01:41 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Back to the Illuminati thing.

There is a group of people in the US who run around talking about how the Illuminati are bent on world domination and are taking (or have taken) all of our freedoms away. They have all sorts of theories about how world leaders and organizations are all part of this grand evil conspiracy.

However, these people, in my experience, tend to hate Muslims. These are the crazy nut jobs you see worrying about Sharia law and trying to stop mosques. Most of these people have a rather extreme Christian world view that sees Islam as a force of evil.

I am a bit surprised to hear a Muslim talking about the Illuminati.




Haha Yeah because no body knows anything about Islam.
Most people arn't even awear that Jesus is a prophet and is recorded in the Qu'ran more than Mohammad peace be upon them.

I understand that alot of examples people use to try and 'proove' illuminati are wack and they should just stop takling so much acid or chill out, but there seem to me to (in the music industry atleast) be a strong hint o truth to it, espiecally in the lyrics and sybolism used in main stream music.
So i only concentrate on music and the videos as they're the only source i can acually look at my self. ha
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 06:53 am
@Ali phil,
I think you are wrong. There is a perfectly good reason for this "symbolism".

If there is a God, she most certainly doesn't care about symbols. Symbols are invented by humans, and different cultures put different meanings to different symbols. (The most famous example of this is the Nazi swastika, the ultimate symbol of fascist evil in the moder US which was a symbol of healing to ancient cultures long before the Nazi's were invented).

The symbols you are seeing in Music videos (I assume you mean American videos, but the principle applies) are being made with the American culture. These symbols are very familiar to American culture.

If you are a good artists who wants to make an impact, you will use the symbols that are known in the culture.

People use the skull and crossbones even though they aren't pirates. They were bridal veils when they aren't brides.

It's just art.
Ali phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 07:00 pm
@maxdancona,
"its just art" Art has meaning and impact, and if sombody is using a satanic symbol ans several of them in one video clip knowingly to represent satan then why would god not care..?
If you heard a song which was saying 'kill all the jews' and there were swastikas present i don't think you would say oh its probably not racist because these symbols have been around for centuries its justy art...
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 07:54 pm
@Ali phil,
I see your point. But there is a difference.

The Swastika was a symbol of a real evil. Millions of real people were really killed by a real doctrine. The people doing the evil killing chose the symbol to represent themselves.

On the other hand, Satan is a religious figure that comes from Christianity (with roots in earlier religion) that is shared by Islam. These symbols were invented by Christians (I am pretty sure that these symbols you are talking about originated in the West) to slander other people.

There has been very little evil done by people who are using Satanic symbols. The evil that has been occasionally done by people claiming to be connected to Satan was done by people who were either Christian or Muslim and very very angry.

There is no one who believes in Satan who doesn't also believe in Jesus.


Ali phil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 06:12 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I see your point. But there is a difference.

The Swastika was a symbol of a real evil. Millions of real people were really killed by a real doctrine. The people doing the evil killing chose the symbol to represent themselves.

On the other hand, Satan is a religious figure that comes from Christianity (with roots in earlier religion) that is shared by Islam. These symbols were invented by Christians (I am pretty sure that these symbols you are talking about originated in the West) to slander other people.

There has been very little evil done by people who are using Satanic symbols. The evil that has been occasionally done by people claiming to be connected to Satan was done by people who were either Christian or Muslim and very very angry.

There is no one who believes in Satan who doesn't also believe in Jesus.


1) Satan is the puriest of evil. "swastika was a symbol of real evil"
2) Satan is a cristian and Islamic figure yes but accualy the symbols are older than both these religions the majority are from bobalonia, symbols and spell for dark magic were brought to israel in ancient times. These symbols and spells were for many evil purposes one being for an example to break up marriges.
3) If people are being tricked into singing about satan and Islam is correct and they end up in hell for ever than this is real evil and effects people very seriously.
4) Any connection with the devil knowingly or not is a spiritual connection witch is detremental to mental health etc, (theoretically) (real harm)
5) Anyone who worships the devil does not believe in god and is counted as a disbeliever and gos to hell accualy.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 07:49 am
@Ali phil,
Lets take these in reverse order. I would like you to try to step out of your bias (i.e. as a member of a religion) and try to understand this rationally on a general sense.

5. In Greek mythology two of the characters were Zeus and Hecate. You probably don't believe in, or worship either. If someone in this religion came and told you you must worship Hecate because you didn't worship Zeus, you would tell them they were nuts.

People who don't believe in the Christian/Islamic narrative of God and Satan don't believe in either God or Satan. Whether they go to Hell (which they probably also don't believe in) is another story.

4) The idea that connection with the Devil causes mental health issues is probably unscientific.

People have been murdered in both Christian and Muslim context because they were accused of having such a connection (it seems to me that the murderers are the ones being evil).

People who don't accept the religious story won't have any connection to either of the characters.

3a) If you tell me that I am going to Hell, isn't it you who is being evil? Don't blame your hateful beliefs on me. Do you know that many Christians believe that all Muslims are going to Hell?

Unfortunately religious people seem to like standing around explaining telling each other they are going to Hell. I think this is a very ugly to do.

3b) Singing? Really? If either Christianity or Islam is correct, then I am going to Hell. Believe me, it is going to be for reasons that are a lot more enjoyable than singing.

2) In ancient religions, each little culture had their own God. Each little culture called all the other Gods evil. Their own God's magic was considered good (even when it involved murder or destruction).

Followers of the Christian/Islamic God have used quite a few spells that can only be called evil. God used magic to kill thousands of innocent babies in Pharonic Egypt. God then killed thousands of His own people in one night in the desert. There are even petty examples, the prophet Elisha magically summoned a bear to kill some kids who called him "baldy" (a little severe don't you think).

1) Satan is a mythological figure. Saying he is the purest of evil has no meaning outside of a specific religious context.

Real evil includes genocide and abuse and murder. All of these things are often done in the name of God. The crusades were done in the name of God by people wearing crosses. People were sold into slavery by people who followed God and wore crosses and crescents (not pentagrams).

Looking through history, it is obvious that compared to the great evil done by people claiming to worship God and wearing Godly symbols, the people claiming to worship Satan are pretty insignificant.







Ali phil
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2011 01:10 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Lets take these in reverse order. I would like you to try to step out of your bias (i.e. as a member of a religion) and try to understand this rationally on a general sense.

5. In Greek mythology two of the characters were Zeus and Hecate. You probably don't believe in, or worship either. If someone in this religion came and told you you must worship Hecate because you didn't worship Zeus, you would tell them they were nuts.

People who don't believe in the Christian/Islamic narrative of God and Satan don't believe in either God or Satan. Whether they go to Hell (which they probably also don't believe in) is another story.

4) The idea that connection with the Devil causes mental health issues is probably unscientific.

People have been murdered in both Christian and Muslim context because they were accused of having such a connection (it seems to me that the murderers are the ones being evil).

People who don't accept the religious story won't have any connection to either of the characters.

3a) If you tell me that I am going to Hell, isn't it you who is being evil? Don't blame your hateful beliefs on me. Do you know that many Christians believe that all Muslims are going to Hell?

Unfortunately religious people seem to like standing around explaining telling each other they are going to Hell. I think this is a very ugly to do.

3b) Singing? Really? If either Christianity or Islam is correct, then I am going to Hell. Believe me, it is going to be for reasons that are a lot more enjoyable than singing.

2) In ancient religions, each little culture had their own God. Each little culture called all the other Gods evil. Their own God's magic was considered good (even when it involved murder or destruction).

Followers of the Christian/Islamic God have used quite a few spells that can only be called evil. God used magic to kill thousands of innocent babies in Pharonic Egypt. God then killed thousands of His own people in one night in the desert. There are even petty examples, the prophet Elisha magically summoned a bear to kill some kids who called him "baldy" (a little severe don't you think).

1) Satan is a mythological figure. Saying he is the purest of evil has no meaning outside of a specific religious context.

Real evil includes genocide and abuse and murder. All of these things are often done in the name of God. The crusades were done in the name of God by people wearing crosses. People were sold into slavery by people who followed God and wore crosses and crescents (not pentagrams).

Looking through history, it is obvious that compared to the great evil done by people claiming to worship God and wearing Godly symbols, the people claiming to worship Satan are pretty insignificant.











1a) You wouldnt follow any pagan religious cos they are all myths they have no prophets, or scientific statements writting in a book (from god) thousands of years ago eg. the big bang.
2) if sombody was to tell you that you were going to hell and you were that would probably be a nice reminder so you could 'change your ways' so to speak, weather or not their opnion on you going to hell or not is worth listing to should be decided by yourself after study of religious scripture, such as the Qu'ran which has over 1000 scientific statements in it, several being very important to the intire universe such as the theory of 'the big bang'
3)whats this about singing you've either miss understood somthing i said or i've had a wee typo haha sorry.
4) Crusdades were not in the name of god they were in the name of profet, the middle east was faaaar richer than western europe and so the poe decided hot dang i need some of that money, and fabricated a lie to get it which was that if anyone went on crusade they would have a spot in heaven, not the first or last lie by the catholic church as im sure you would agree, eg. they were selling spots in heaven then due to huge disagree upon this the lutherin church formed in germany, probably havent spelt that correctly.
5) the holy war 'Jihad' in islam isn't dodgey, there are very clear rules about what you must NOT do, examples, damage a building, fight on soil that is not of you're own country to expale occupation by forener, hurt a civilian in the process, hurt a woman or child even if they are in an army (that last one im not sure about but i think it is one). and you cannot invade. only defend your land from invaders.

I am enjoying talking to you about this cos you're not being agreesive and real anti religion you have real valid points and don't let biases to religion come out in your argument thank you (:
Others are really negitive haha.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2011 09:00 am
@Ali phil,
There is little real difference between religion and mythology. Well, a religion is a set of beliefs that you accept as valid, and mythology is a set of beliefs you believe in. It is a matter of perspective.

Hell is also a matter of perspective. Many people believe I am going to Hell. Many people believe you are going to Hell. I suppose you are right that is an act of kindness when people who believe I am going to Hell tell me so. But, it doesn't feel like an act of kindness.

You missed my point about the Crusades. I was using the Crusades as an example where Christians were the aggressors doing evil things to civilians. And the Christians were certainly killing civilians including children in the name of God. They wore crosses (symbols of Christians godly righteousness) while they were doing evil acts.

My point was that people who do the greatest evil are usually wearing symbols from God.
Ali phil
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2011 06:44 pm
@maxdancona,
yeah but it hink it just because of a power thing, like if religious sybols wernt the most powerful they would use another, i.e swastika, hammer and sikkle (i accualy prefer soviets to coperations haha but an example none the less better exampliflyed by Pol Pot, people use a cause which relates to the people to trick them into siding with evil. So has little to do with religion and much more connection with what ever holds the most weight at the time.
(poorly contructed replay but cant be bothered proofing haha sorry)
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2011 09:17 pm
@Ali phil,
I am trying to explain which symbols I find offensive, particularly why I think that Satanic symbols are pretty inoffensive.

The swastika was used for a real evil, the killing of millions of real people in a brutal and hateful way. The pentagram has never been used this way. People who said they were acting in the name of the Devil have never committed such a horrendous crime.

People claiming to be following the Christian God have committed some pretty horrible atrocities (killing real people). People following the Muslim God have likewise done some horrible things. Of course Atheists have gotten into the act with Pol Pot and Stalin, also doing horrible things. So I am not saying that only religious people are capable of great evil.

But Satan, the so-called Lord of Evil, is pretty pathetic when you consider what has been done in his name. There have been a couple of wacko serial killers who say they were acting on behalf of Satan. Compared to all of the evil done in the name of God, from Srebrenica, to the Armenian Genocide, to the Crusades, to 9/11, etc. etc. etc. Satan is really insignificant.

This is why I don't mind Satanic symbolism in pop songs. They don't really mean anything. The evil that Satan represents is nothing more than fiction.

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