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NFL Ruling

 
 
hymie66
 
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2003 01:12 pm
Does anybody know the ruling on out of bounds. When running along the side line and pushed out of bounds, does the ball get marked at the first point of when it cross the imaginary out of bounds line or where the ball lands out of bounds.
Same question in the end zone. When a player dives in the end zone at an angle crosses the corner of the in bounds and goal line. Does the ball need to be in bounds in the air or can it cross the goal line out of bounds. This is hard to explain. Please do you best whomever can answer these questions. I do have a bet on this and yes it is for some beers. Thanks all that can take a stab at this.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 3 • Views: 31,410 • Replies: 51
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2003 01:25 pm
I'm not the foremost expert on NFL rules, but I believe it's the offensive player's feet, not the ball, that determines when the play is over because he's out of bounds. Same for being in or out of the end zone for a touchdown.
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hymie66
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2003 01:33 pm
NFL Ruling
Thanks for the quick reply. The questions comes from the Monday night football game on 12-15-2003 when the ball was marked at the 1/2 yard line and then over turned with which we thought was inconclusive evidence to a touchdown. There was no clear camera view of weather or not he was in bounds and over the goal line. In any case we have asked this question to several people and keep getting different answers. Thanks again and Happy Holidays!!! Very Happy
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2003 01:43 pm
On the endzone question --

...the endzone extends way beyond the field of play.

A person can be in the air -- out-of-bounds -- with the ball in his hands -- and still score a touchdown.

The out-of-bounds does not take effect until the ground is touched -- so if the ball crosses the goal line -- whether in-bounds or out-of-bound on the extended goal line -- it is a touchdown.
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2003 03:57 pm
That's not quite right. Imagine a box the same size as the playing field, excluding the end zone. If the ball crosses through either of the long sides of the box before it crosses through one of short sides, it is out of bounds at that point. Even if the players body crosses one of short sides but the ball doesn't, that's not a touchdown.

As for anywhere on the field, the ball is marked at the spot it went out of bounds.

The play in question I believe the ruling was that the players feet were out of bounds BEFORE the ball crossed the goal line. If he had simply reached out and stuck the ball through the short side of the box, then went out of bounds at the 1/2 yard line, that would be a touchdown.

Where's my beer?
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2003 07:35 am
cjhsa wrote:
That's not quite right. Imagine a box the same size as the playing field, excluding the end zone. If the ball crosses through either of the long sides of the box before it crosses through one of short sides, it is out of bounds at that point. Even if the players body crosses one of short sides but the ball doesn't, that's not a touchdown.

As for anywhere on the field, the ball is marked at the spot it went out of bounds.

The play in question I believe the ruling was that the players feet were out of bounds BEFORE the ball crossed the goal line. If he had simply reached out and stuck the ball through the short side of the box, then went out of bounds at the 1/2 yard line, that would be a touchdown.

Where's my beer?


You are incorrect here.

If the ball crosses the goal line before the carrier touches down out of bounds -- it is a touchdown. And the ball does not have to cross the goal line on the in-bounds portion, because as I mentioned, the goal line extends past the out-of-bounds markers.

This is absolutely correct -- and I am willing to make a considerable bet with anyone who wants to suggest it is wrong.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 12:15 pm
Frank,

I have never seen that ruling in my life, and I've watched a lot of football. I maintain that if the ball goes out of bounds before crossing the goal line, it will be marked as out of bounds.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 12:33 pm
cjhsa wrote:
Frank,

I have never seen that ruling in my life, and I've watched a lot of football. I maintain that if the ball goes out of bounds before crossing the goal line, it will be marked as out of bounds.


If the ball goes out of bounds before crossing the goal line, you are absolutely correct. But the ball in the hands of a player who is in the air and diving -- is not out of bounds if it crosses the goal line which extends past the out of bounds markers.

Consider this: A player begins a dive for the end zone at the three yard line. By the time he (still in the air) gets to the one yard line, he is clearly over the out-of-bounds line and so is the ball. But he does not touch down to the ground until past the goal line -- and the ball has passed over the goal line IN THE OUT OF BOUNDS AREA.

It is a touchdown.

The goal line extends out past the pylons into the out of bounds area -- and if the ball crosses (or merely touches) the goal line while in the possession of the ball carrier before that player touches down out-of-bounds -- it is a touchdown.

By the way, the goal line you see is entirely in the end zone, so the moment the ball touches the goal line, it has crossed into the end zone.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 12:46 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:

You are incorrect here.

If the ball crosses the goal line before the carrier touches down out of bounds -- it is a touchdown. And the ball does not have to cross the goal line on the in-bounds portion, because as I mentioned, the goal line extends past the out-of-bounds markers.

This is absolutely correct -- and I am willing to make a considerable bet with anyone who wants to suggest it is wrong.


I've never seen or heard this either. The NFL rules clearly state:

Quote:
1. Sidelines and end lines are out of bounds. The goal line is actually in the end zone. A player with the ball in his possession scores a touchdown when the ball is on, above, or over the goal line.

2. The field is rimmed by a white border, six feet wide, along the sidelines. All of this is out of bounds.


Since that white border extends the full length of the field on both sides (including the end zones) I don't see how the goal line can extend beyond them. If your statement about the goal line extending beyond the sidlines were accurate there would have been no reason for the 2002 NFL rule clarification:

Quote:
A player who touches a pylon remains in-bounds until any part of his body touches the ground out-of-bounds.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 12:50 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
By the way, the goal line you see is entirely in the end zone, so the moment the ball touches the goal line, it has crossed into the end zone.


That part I agree with. The rest I don't.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 01:15 pm
cjhsa wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
By the way, the goal line you see is entirely in the end zone, so the moment the ball touches the goal line, it has crossed into the end zone.


That part I agree with. The rest I don't.


What could I tell ya.

Yer wrong!
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 05:34 pm
I have asked several of my best expert buds, and their reply to this is, "Then why do you always see players reaching to get the ball inside the pylon?".
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 05:52 pm
Ya don't see that, because none of them do it.

All they want to do is to break the plane of the end zone which each and every one of them knows extends out beyond the pylons.
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 07:09 pm
hmm. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
hymie66 seems to have disappeared, so to Frank et al:
It seems to me there are (at least) two questions here. The first involves what constitutes a completed pass and where the ball should be placed. I run down the field, Bret throws me a pass which I catch just inside the out-of-bounds line, getting my feet to hit the ground just before some 350 lb lineman launches this 135 lb puppy into the stands. The ball will be marked not where I landed but at the last place that my feet were on the ground. The sidelines issue seems pretty clear.

A touchdown is scored when the ball clears the goal line, which extends frome sideline to sideline, and no farther. Bret gives me the ball, I dive over everyone, getting the ball to break the plane before I get ripped apart. Touchdown.
Finally, where it gets interesting is in this scenario (which I don't know how would be ruled upon): I catch the pass at the one yard line but end up beyond the goal posts in a snow drift. Yea, I broke the plane but...
Football has some fascinating geometry involved.
Go Packers.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 08:14 pm
realjohnboy wrote:
hmm. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


Correct!

Quote:
A touchdown is scored when the ball clears the goal line, which extends frome sideline to sideline, and no farther.


Now you should read the statement up above again, because you do not know what you are talking about.

The goal line extends indefinitely.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 08:42 pm
Put it this way... why are there pylons?
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 08:52 pm
I think you're wrong about the goal line extending indefinitely, but perhaps I'm not understanding what you are saying, Frank. Please explain it again. Thanks -johnboy
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 09:28 pm
I found this discussion, it's interesting if not exactly definitive:

http://www.officialforum.com/showthread.php?postid=112657#post112657

There seems to be a fairly good case being made that the goal line is indeed extended past the pylons. But then some guy says he looked it up in the rule book and found this:

Quote:
went to the library today, and looked the ruling up in the Official NFL Rulebook. It is as follows:

Section 2 TOUCHDOWN
Article 1
It is a touchdown:
(a) when a runner (3-38) advances from the field of play and the ball touches the opponent's goal line (plane);
or
(b) while inbounds any player catches or recovers a loose ball (3-2-3) on or behind the opponent's goal line.

Section 38 TOUCHDOWN
A touchdown is the situation in which any part of the ball, legally in possession of a player inbounds, is on, above, or behind the opponent's goal line (plane), provided it is not a touchback (11-2).

As far as the question of whether the pylons are inbounds, the Rulebook states:

The four intersections of goal lines must be marked at inside corners of the end zone and the goal line by pylons mounted on flexible shafts. Pylons must be placed at inside edges of white lines and should not touch the surface of the actual playing field itself.

There you have it. The plane is only vertical because the ball has to be on, above, or behind the goal line, and MUST be possessed by an offensive player who is INBOUNDS. The ball can, however, touch the pylon because the pylons are inbounds.

Mystery solved!


This is what Fishin' said as well, I realize upon re-reading. #2 of what he posted seems especially unambiguous.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 09:47 pm
That is a discussion forum, not unlike A2K or Abuzz.

Here are two other discussions in that forum:

Quote:
I am a football fan that has a rule related question about the NFL. I hope that this is the right forum to clear up my confusion about a rule. If it isn't, please let me know and I will not bother the members that are posting here. Ok, here is my question: I heard that the goal line of a football field extends out (as an imaginary line) from the out of bound marker so that a player doesn't necessarily have to get the ball to cross the plane of the goal line inside the pylon, and that as long as the player hasn't stepped out of bounds (and is diving in the air, for example) they will have scored a touchdown if the ball crosses the plane of that imaginary goal line that extends out of bounds. But that it is a common misconception among players that the ball has to cross the plane of the goal line inside the pylon, which is why they attempt to reach with the football when they are close to the goal line and are getting forced out of bounds. The source of this information was an announcer to a professional game. Can anyone point me in the direction of the rule book or confirm or deny this rule? Thanks. Loyal Fan.

The NFL doesn't post their rule book on the internet. This is the 1% of the time an announcer was correct on a rule. The plane of the goal line extends upward forever. The goal line extended also has no limits. If the ball carrier hasn't physically touched out-of-bounds, it's a TD when the ball touches the front edge of the plane of the goal line. The pylons on the goal line are considered to be in the EZ.


So you can see that you really cannot rely on the info given there.

I am making a concerted effort to get something definitive.

I know that Jerry Markbreit has written on this issue in a column in one of the Chicago Newspapers, but I am having a terrible time accessing the info.

Soon as I get it I will share.

I have talked to a high school coach about this -- and he is of the opinion that the goal line extends indefintely up above the plane -- and indefinitely along the plane.

He is of the opinion that a ball-carrier in the air would be credited with a touchdown if he carries the ball over the extended goal line even if he is outside the out-of-bounds lines, because he (and the ball) are not officially out-of-bounds until they hit land out of bounds.

But I promise I will try to get a first hand, accessable resolution to this issue.

I sure as hell is interesting.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 09:49 pm
If anyone here is good at looking this kind of stuff up (I am a clod) I'd like you to go to this link -- and see if you can access the Jerry Markbreit column that dealt with this issue.

Look at the first item on this page:



http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=nfl+touchdown+goal+line+extends&btnG=Google+Search
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