53
   

Tunesia, Egyt and now Yemen: a domino effect in the Middle East?

 
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 01:17 pm
7:11pm GMT: Bahrain's foreign minister has said the crackdown on anti-government protesters this morning, which left four people dead, was "regrettable", AP is reporting.

Bahrain's top diplomat says the pre-dawn crackdown on anti-government protesters was justified because the demonstrators were pushing the kingdom to the "brink of the sectarian abyss."

Foreign Minister Khalid Al Khalifa said Thursday the violence that occurred during the raid that swept away a protest encampment and left at least four people dead in Manama's central Pearl roundabout was "regrettable."

Speaking to reporters after meeting with his Gulf counterparts, al Khalifa said the protesters were pushing the Sunni-ruled, Shiite-majority nation to the "brink of the sectarian abyss" and "polarizing the country."
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 01:20 pm
From the New York Times

MANAMA, Bahrain — The army took control of this city on Thursday, except at the main hospital, where thousands of people gathered screaming, crying, collapsing in grief, just hours after police opened fired with birdshot, rubber bullets and tear gas on pro-democracy demonstrators camped in Pearl Square.

As the army asserted control of the streets with tanks and heavily armed soldiers, the once- peaceful protesters were transformed into a mob of angry mourners chanting slogans like “Death to the King,” while the opposition withdrew from the parliament and demanded that the government step down.

But for those who were in Pearl Square in the early morning hours, when police opened fired without warning on thousands who were sleeping there, it was a day of shock and disbelief. Many of the hundreds taken to the hospital were wounded by shotgun blasts, doctors said, their bodies speckled with pellets or bruised by rubber bullets or police clubs.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 01:26 pm
@fbaezer,
This immediately brought to mind Mariano Azuela's reactionary novel Los De Abajo about the Mexican Revolution.

The title is translated in English as The Underdogs, but is more accurately translatable as Those From The Bottom.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 02:05 pm
7:3pm GMT - Egypt: Two former ministers from the Mubarak government, including an official from his NDP party, have been arrested, security officials have told AP
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  2  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 02:37 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

This immediately brought to mind Mariano Azuela's reactionary novel Los De Abajo about the Mexican Revolution.

The title is translated in English as The Underdogs, but is more accurately translatable as Those From The Bottom.


Actually the peasants shitting on the landlord's chair tapestry is an image of the Russian revolution.
But yes, there is a much similar image in Azuela's novel: the peasants strapping out Doré's engravings of The Divine Comedy when they ramsack the landlord's library, considering them some sort of porno.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 02:50 pm
@InfraBlue,
I find your contempt for what you perceive to be realpolitik to be very interesting, because if I'm not mistaken you have a similar contempt for the foreign policy of George Bush.

Bush talked a better game then he delivered, but everyone who decried him and his advisors as neo-cons seemed to assume he was a member, in fine standing, of that ideological group.

Now Obama certainly is a proponent of realpolitik, but I'm afraid that his policy decisions are based at least as much on his political and ego-based interests, as they are on those of what he perceives to be America's.

His reaction (or more precisely,non-reaction) to the brutally crushed Iranian reform movement was classic realpolitik, except that it failed miserably after 3 three weeks rather than 3 decades.

For those who deplore realpolitik policy that has us propping up despots around the world, but who also preach we need to keep our nose out of the affairs of other countries and stop trying to be the world's police...Just what the hell sort of foreign policy do you want? Isolationism?

Are Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan your ideal secretaries of state?

There are only so many options available, and none of them are going to be perfectly executed, and all of them will generate extreme criticism from one faction or another.

InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 03:40 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Realpolitik is contemptible because, among other things, it puts one nation's interests in the internal affairs of another nation over that other nation's own interests. It's immoral.

We shouldn't be the self-appointed world police. Isolationism would be a better alternative. In that I agree with Paul and Buchanan.

We'll never know, but I suspect that Iraq, had things remained as they were before our realpolitik "democratization", may have gone the way of these other regimes in the region. Change from within, not from a nuclearized WMD without.

I agree that there are only so many options available, and none of them are going to be perfectly executed, and all of them will generate extreme criticism from one faction or another, and your criticism of the option Obama has taken is an apt example of that.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 03:53 pm
@InfraBlue,
Our country is going bankrupt, and our government still wants to be the world's police. How stupid! We can't even have enough police in our own cities.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 04:02 pm
@cicerone imposter,
But if you had no "police" abroad the cities you mention would be small towns and villages and then you would only need a sheriff and a deputy to keep the peace. The "police" abroad were not despatched there for their own good. Are you saying they were.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 04:04 pm
@spendius,
No, spendi, we're talking about cities such as San Jose, CA, and Oakland, CA. San Jose is proposing to cut 200 officers if they refuse to negotiate on pay and pension.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 04:18 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
Isolationism would be a better alternative.


Maybe the isolationists have given up on persauding the American people and are now trying to get isolation forced on the US. The Romans had their isolationists. But their martial way of life would have to be turned on the citizens if they were isolated.

At the prosaic level the NFL might have to be replaced by more genteel games. Such as basketball. And aggressive imagery in movies and advertising changed to Katie Couric types explaining how wonderful you all are in scenic setting of soft-focus restfulness.

spendius
 
  0  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 04:24 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
No, spendi, we're talking about cities such as San Jose, CA, and Oakland, CA. San Jose is proposing to cut 200 officers if they refuse to negotiate on pay and pension.


Once again ci. your general all-round stupidity and stubborn obtuseness completely misses the point.

And besides, a reduction of 200 police officers can only lead to an increase in freedom. Surely? What are they doing if it doesn't. It hardly matters that you personally would use that extra freedom responsibly.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 04:27 pm
@spendius,
Who's obtuse here? Look in the mirror while you are sober.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 04:42 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
our government still wants to be the world's police.


The US has never been the world's police, CI. Other than a couple of instances where they joined other countries in world wars, they have only been the world's gangsters.

Smedley Butler wasn't lying when he said that in his entire Marine service he was an enforcer for American racketeers.
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 05:07 pm
@engineer,
<nodding>
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 05:08 pm
10:14 pm GMT: A Saudi Arabian prince has called on King Abdullah to step up the pace of reform or risk the unrest that has spread across the Arab world in recent weeks.

Prince Talal bin Abdul-Aziz, a half brother of the king, told BBC Arabic that the Saudi government still had time to take steps to avoid protests. He also said the king is the only person who can bring about major changes.

However, it seems unlikely that the king would pay heed to Talal's views as he holds no government posts and is considered something of an outsider within the royal family.
He was forced briefly into exile in the 1960s amid reports at the time that he planned a revolt, AP reports.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 05:09 pm
@InfraBlue,
Are you aware of what Obama is doing/saying behind the scenes? If not, what is your opinion about how he's handling the Egyptian crisis in public?

...she asks for the third time...
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 05:33 pm
@JTT,
I'm not so sure about that! Starting with the Korean war, which was called a "police action," up to and including our intrusion into sovereign countries that have been at odds with our politics or allies had us involved by the CIA or our military. Most of those were "none of our business," and the countries that are close should be more concerned and involved with any aggression close to home.

We are talking about homeland security.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 05:58 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I'm not so sure about that! Starting with the Korean war, which was called a "police action," up to and including our intrusion into sovereign countries that have been at odds with our politics or allies had us involved by the CIA or our military. Most of those were "none of our business,"


The Korean War wasn't anymore of a war than Vietnam. The US installed a brutal right wing dictator and following the patterns of war crimes committed against Japanese civilians in WWII, then proceeded to specifically bomb civilians, both north and south. That's not what police are supposed to do.

Quote:
Korea International War Crimes Tribunal, June 23, 2001, New York
Report on US Crimes in Korea 1945-2001

19. Statistics on Crimes Committed
by US Troops in south Korea

Civil Network for a Peaceful Korea

Over 100,000 Cases of Crimes, Over 100,000 Victims

Crimes committed by US soldiers were found as early as when US troops were first stationed in south Korea. According to the south Korean government's official statistics, 50,082 crimes were committed by US soldiers from 1967 to 1998 (including those by soldiers' families), and 56,904 US soldiers were involved (including soldiers' families) in these crimes. The statistics imply that the actual figure may be higher if take into account those cases not handled by the south Korean police. Based on the statistics, the total number of crimes committed by US soldiers since September 8, 1945 (when they were first stationed in Korea) is estimated to be around 100,000. Unfortunately the south Korean government does not have statistics on US soldiers' crimes committed before 1967, because SOFA (Status of Forces Agreement) went into effect in 1967, allowing the south Korean court jurisdiction over crimes committed by US soldiers with narrow and limited application.

Read on at,

http://www.iacenter.org/Koreafiles/ktc-civilnetwork.htm

spendius
 
  0  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 06:00 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
We are talking about homeland security.


You are talking complete and utter balderdash ci. Your government said that is was their business. And looked at from the government's point of view it must have been because everybody knows that getting involved in things that are not your business is what busy-bodying old ladies do and one simply cannot have the government of the only superpower behaving like a gaggle of busy-bodying old ladies. Like that one who handbagged the jewel thieves last week.

Can one?
 

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