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Tunesia, Egyt and now Yemen: a domino effect in the Middle East?

 
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 07:15 pm
@InfraBlue,
If you want to trawl around in the past, I guess that speech made you feel good.

If you want to talk about the PRESENT, is Obama correct for laying low - or as the guys responding to the article I linked say - is Obama and the UK leadership wrong not to take some noisy public stand?
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 07:16 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

I saw him last night asserting that he was doing a good job.

And if we can't take the President of the United States of America's word for things where does that leave us.
that leaves us looking for WOMD under our beds.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 07:21 pm
@fbaezer,
Hey, dude. I'm all about the **** and the messy iterations of the **** organization. Viva la caca!! I have craved the opening of that box for years.

It's been a frightening, but glorious thing to behold. Like Tienanmen and the Berlin Wall. The Velvet Revolution, the reorganization of the Eastern European countries. How blessed we've been to live in these times!

Of course, I say this from the safety of my living room.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 07:29 pm
The Colbert take on the genetic ability of Middle Easterners to cope with democracy.
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/374398/february-15-2011/italian-bunga-bunga-parties---egyptian-democracy

Sit through the Berlusconi stuff to see the Fox News angle.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 08:16 pm
@hingehead,
Very funny & very insightful at the same time.
(He's very good!)

I was waiting for the obvious bunga-bunga connection to kick into this debate.
About time. Smile

(Loved the reverse burka!)
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 09:32 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
Why do you even connect the two? You are saying that a brutal rape of a reporter covering a news story is excused because of US policy?


First, there was no mention of a rape, Engineer. Repeated sexual assault can mean many things, but it doesn't necessarily mean rape. That's not to suggest that repeated sexual assaults are fun events either.

I stated that such an event was sad; did you miss that? And I never intimated for one second that these actions could or should be excused because of US policy.

I think, considering that the US has supported these brutal dictators for around sixty years that the Egyptians showed enormous restraint in dealing with any Americans that they might have encountered. Don't you?

Now to the connection. As soon as something happens to an American, there is this huge kerfuffle, and lies, propaganda and threats of retaliation hit the airwaves. Much to Ms Logan's credit, she has asked that things be left out of the media, that she be allowed to deal with this privately.

But there is never mention, none, at all, of the enormous brutality that the US has heaped on the world's innocents. Even you, when you were set straight on the US's bullying Cuba into the US keeping a base [Guantanamo] on Cuba's sovereign soil, your reply wasn't much more than a "meh".


Quote:
How about Giffords being gunned down? No sympathy there because of U.S. policy. She's in Congress after all!


What has this to do anything? People are daily murdered all over the planet.

Quote:
Some A2K member says he had a death in the family? NO SYMPATHY! DID YOU SEE WHAT THE U.S. DID? With views like this, you should work for the CIA. Clearly have have the same level of compassion.


I've expressed my condolences when I thought it appropriate.

I can easily turn this around and ask you to point to one post where you've expressed sympathy for the millions that have met horrid deaths precisely because of the illegal actions of the US government.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 09:40 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
First, there was no mention of a rape, Engineer. Repeated sexual assault can mean many things, but it doesn't necessarily mean rape. That's not to suggest that repeated sexual assaults are fun events either.

Since rape was not alleged you can pretty much go to the bank with the conclusion that there was no rape. She probably got groped, which is a common problem in Egypt as I understand. I believe actual rape is very rare.
JTT
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 09:52 pm
@fbaezer,
Quote:
To not distinguish between the people and the system is infantilism. That logic makes all Americans "enemies", does not understand the contradictions inside American society and does not help the cause (any cause, certainly not the argumentative logorreah of our poster). It only serves those who think that opposing imperialism is equivalent to losing any trace of humanism. A tool for the class enemy.


The only contradiction is the one wherein the people of the US continually allow their politicians to commit crimes, both national and international and do nothing to stop them, or to hold them accountable. War crimes have no time limit. Where is the sanctity accorded the rule of law? What of the notion, much touted, that no one is above the law?

Quote:

To use covert CIA operations of decades ago as an excuse for just about anything in inexcusable. If we keep on going back in history, we'd be able to condone the rape of a German woman (the Nazis), an English woman (how many crimes did those colonialists pigs commit?) or an Italian (remember those dastarly [sic] Roman emperors!).


That's stupidity on a humongous level. This kind of ignorance is inexcusable.

As it happens, the US does keep going back in history. It has quite frequently taken away the citizenship of immigrants who were accused of war crimes during WWII and it has deported them to countries to stand trial.

For its own terrorists, it grants pardons. For the war criminals from Germany and Japan that could provide the US with knowledge about things evil, there was forgiveness and inclusion in the very fabric of America.

But the history points to a pattern, a pattern that just keeps on repeating. Unless you are brain dead, and this post of yours certainly illustrates that possibility, you couldn't miss the latest two huge sets of war crimes; the illegal invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. From those two, war crime after war crime has flowed.
cicerone imposter
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 10:00 pm
@JTT,
What I find also appalling in the US is how white collar criminals rarely pay the full cost of their crimes. They steal, rob, take through fraud, people's life savings, and they go to jail for a few years without giving up all the stealing they have done from the innocent, and live high on the hog.

I don't trust our government to do anything that is ethical, honest, or for the best interest of the citizens they are supposed to represent.

It's not only the illegal wars we initiate, but how the government breaks both domestic and international laws while at war, and they never pay for their crimes.

Our country is emerging into an abyss of have and have nots while its own citizens advocate for not taxing the rich to pay its expenses or reduce the national debt.

They are ignorant sheeps who follow their party politics without understanding they are killing the golden goose that was once the admiration of the world.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 10:16 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Since rape was not alleged you can pretty much go to the bank with the conclusion that there was no rape.


No, you can't assume that, Hawk. At this point, with what we've got, there's no legitimate reason to assume one way or the other.
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 10:35 pm
@revelette,
Quote:
If those things were really true, we would hear about them from other people, it would be in the human rights organization web site or something.


Rev, this guy that I quoted was high up in the CIA. Read the whole article. As he says, this information is all in the public record.

Quote:

THE SECRET WARS OF THE CIA:

part I

THE INNER WORKINGS OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL AND THE CIA'S COVERT ACTIONS IN ANGOLA, CENTRAL AMERICA AND VIETNAM

by John Stockwell

a lecture given in October, 1987

John Stockwell is the highest-ranking CIA official ever to leave the agency and go public. He ran a CIA intelligence-gathering post in Vietnam, was the task-force commander of the CIA's secret war in Angola in 1975 and 1976, and was awarded the Medal of Merit before he resigned. Stockwell's book In Search of Enemies, published by W.W. Norton 1978, is an international best-seller.
*****


"I did 13 years in the CIA altogether. I sat on a subcommittee of the NSC, so I was like a chief of staff, with the GS-18s (like 3-star generals) Henry Kissinger, Bill Colby (the CIA director), the GS-18s and the CIA, making the important decisions and my job was to put it all together and make it happen and run it, an interesting place from which to watch a covert action being done...

I testified for days before the Congress, giving them chapter and verse, date and detail, proving specific lies. They were asking if we had to do with S. Africa, that was fighting in the country. In fact we were coordinating this operation so closely that our airplanes, full of arms from the states, would meet their airplanes in Kinshasa and they would take our arms into Angola to distribute to our forces for us....

What I found with all of this study is that the subject, the problem, if you will, for the world, for the U.S. is much, much, much graver, astronomically graver, than just Angola and Vietnam. I found that the Senate Church committee has reported, in their study of covert actions, that the CIA ran several thousand covert actions since 1961, and that the heyday of covert action was before 1961; that we have run several hundred covert actions a year, and the CIA has been in business for a total of 37 years.

What we're going to talk about tonight is the United States national security syndrome. We're going to talk about how and why the U.S. manipulates the press. We're going to talk about how and why the U.S. is pouring money into El Salvador, and preparing to invade Nicaragua; how all of this concerns us so directly. I'm going to try to explain to you the other side of terrorism; that is, the other side of what Secretary of State Shultz talks about. In doing this, we'll talk about the Korean war, the Vietnam war, and the Central American war.

Everything I'm going to talk to you about is represented, one way or another, already in the public records. You can dig it all out for yourselves, without coming to hear me if you so chose. Books, based on information gotten out of the CIA under the freedom of information act, testimony before the Congress, hearings before the Senate Church committee, research by scholars, witness of people throughout the world who have been to these target areas that we'll be talking about. I want to emphasize that my own background is profoundly conservative. We come from South Texas, East Texas....

I was conditioned by my training, my marine corps training, and my background, to believe in everything they were saying about the cold war, and I took the job with great enthusiasm (in the CIA) to join the best and the brightest of the CIA, of our foreign service, to go out into the world, to join the struggle, to project American values and save the world for our brand of democracy. And I believed this. I went out and worked hard....

What I really got out of these 6 years in Africa was a sense ... that nothing we were doing in fact defended U.S. national security interests very much. We didn't have many national security interests in Bujumbura, Burundi, in the heart of Africa. I concluded that I just couldn't see the point.

We were doing things it seemed because we were there, because it was our function, we were bribing people, corrupting people, and not protecting the U.S. in any visible way. I had a chance to go drinking with this Larry Devlin, a famous CIA case officer who had overthrown Patrice Lumumba, and had him killed in 1960, back in the Congo. He was moving into the Africa division Chief. I talked to him in Addis Ababa at length one night, and he was giving me an explanation - I was telling him frankly, 'sir, you know, this stuff doesn't make any sense, we're not saving anybody from anything, and we are corrupting people, and everybody knows we're doing it, and that makes the U.S. look bad'.

And he said I was getting too big for my britches. He said, `you're trying to think like the people in the NSC back in Washington who have the big picture, who know what's going on in the world, who have all the secret information, and the experience to digest it. If they decide we should have someone in Bujumbura, Burundi, and that person should be you, then you should do your job, and wait until you have more experience, and you work your way up to that point, then you will understand national security, and you can make the big decisions. Now, get to work, and stop, you know, this philosophizing.'

And I said, `Aye-aye sir, sorry sir, a bit out of line sir'. It's a very powerful argument, our presidents use it on us. President Reagan has used it on the American people, saying, `if you knew what I know about the situation in Central America, you would understand why it's necessary for us to intervene.'

I went back to Washington, however, and I found that others shared my concern. A formal study was done in the State Department and published internally, highly classified, called the Macomber [sp?] report, concluding that the CIA had no business being in Africa for anything it was known to be doing, that our presence there was not justified, there were no national security interests that the CIA could address any better than the ambassador himself. We didn't need to have bribery and corruption as a tool for doing business in Africa at that time.

I went from ... a tour in Washington to Vietnam. And there, my career, and my life, began to get a little bit more serious. They assigned me a country. It was during the cease-fire, '73 to '75. There was no cease-fire. Young men were being slaughtered. I saw a slaughter. 300 young men that the South Vietnamese army ambushed. Their bodies brought in and laid out in a lot next to my compound. I was up-country in Tayninh. They were laid out next door, until the families could come and claim them and take them away for burial.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_1.html



JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 10:42 pm
@Lash,
Quote:
If you want to trawl around in the past, I guess that speech made you feel good.


Lash, the history is vitally important to what is happening now. It's absolutely stunning that you, YOU could make such a facile argument. I guess that "shoot the messenger" was wearing pretty thin, eh?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 10:46 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Miss Logan was attacked after becoming separated from her TV crew as she reported on the resignation of Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak. She had to be rescued by a group of women and up to 20 Egyptian soldiers.

The assault lasted for up to half an hour, but was not thought to be a rape.
The colleague said: ''We don't know the extent of what happened and nobody has seen her two producers or her assistant since this happened, so I assume they are all looking after her.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1357394/Lara-Logan-attack-CBS-reporter-leaves-hospital-Cairo-mob-sex-assault.html#ixzz1EBhDGWKY
My prediction is that in a few weeks or months someone will ask her if she was raped, and she will refuse to answer. She was in Egypt for many hours after the attack before she could be flown out the next day, and she never went for medical treatment. It is slightly possible that she had treatment privately, but of course no one is talking. CBS broke the story, left the facts undefined, and is now refusing to talk, letting people assume the worst.

Quote:
In late January 2007, Logan filed a report about fighting along Haifa Street in Baghdad.[4] When CBS News refused to run the report on the nightly news because the footage was "a bit strong,"[5] Logan tried to win public support to reverse this decision. Logan said, "I would be very grateful if any of you have a chance to watch this story and pass the link on to as many people you know as possible. It should be seen. And people should know about this."[5][6] Logan went on to use some of the Haifa Street material during a 60 Minutes report about life in Baghdad under the surge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lara_Logan

CBS's excuse for breaking the story, not leaving it private, is that they were about to face some other outfit reporting the story. How did they find out?? I'd bet money that Lara Logan told them. What probably happened is that Logan was agitating to get the story released, and CBS complied, having dealt with her determined self promoting before. I'd also bet the the reason her coworkers from egypt are not anywhere to be found is that they dont want near questions about what really happened with a 10 foot pole. There will certainly be a book deal now.

we will find out something at some point, and I am wrong occasionally.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 11:14 pm
@fbaezer,
Always easier to blow up a train than make it run on time.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 12:27 am
@engineer,
I don't know what buying into this will actually achieve & I definitely don't want to create yet another digression to the thread subject, but ...

I just want to say, engineer, that you've done JTT a disservice in suggesting he has no compassion or sympathy for people. I am one A2Ker who recently experienced a death in my family & JTT contacted me, expressing his sympathy. He also responded to Art's thread about his aunt's illness .... just two recent examples I'm aware of. Your comment was wrong.

I also believe that JTT has enormous compassion for the suffering of the people of Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, etc ... which is what I think actually motivates many of his posts. I think it is not a lack compassion which upsets a number of people here. Rather, it is how he expresses his strongly-held beliefs.
I share many of those very same beliefs (for the record) & I can see that quite a few others do, too. There are many different ways of saying the same thing

I just wish we didn't make these sorts of personal assertions about each others characters & motives, that's all. Let's stick to responding to the arguments in debate.

That said, I also want to say that I've often found your contributions to various A2K threads really valuable and thoughtful contributions, over a period of years, engineer. You've rarely (if ever before, to my knowledge) made such personal comments about another poster. I hope I can say this without you thinking I'm sucking up to you, because I'm not. I really mean it.

OK, I sincerely hope I haven't created some additional digression from the thread topic. I just wanted to say this.
msolga
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 01:14 am
@msolga,
OK, I did my level best here.

Now would our phantom thumbs downer offer their alternative perspective?

I'd seriously be interested to hear it.

Let's engage! Wink

I obviously know you have views, so let's hear them!



hawkeye10
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 01:22 am
@msolga,
Quote:
Now would our phantom thumbs downer offer their alternative perspective
at this point I bet someone is doing that just to pull your chain, for kicks, because it keeps getting to you...

EDIT: I dont vote out of principle, because I think the system is a bad idea, but just for you I fixed it...
msolga
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 01:29 am
@hawkeye10,
Actually, hawkeye, it is not at all an unusual response, when gutless people do not like what another poster has said.

But I'm sure you know that.

But anyway, let's get back to the thread topic.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 04:25 am
Meanwhile, the situation in Bahrain worsens (as well) ... three demonstrators died already, it has been confirmed ....

From the agencies:
Quote:
Police in the Gulf island kingdom of Bahrain attacked demonstrators camped out in the capital, killing three, in a move to stifle pro-democracy protests inspired by similar movements across the Middle East.

''They are killing us!'' one man told Reuters as police firing teargas and buckshot moved on Pearl Square in Manama around 3am (0000 GMT), dispersing some 2000 people, including women and children, who had spent three days there in emulation of the successful protest camp on Cairo's Tahrir Square.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 05:36 am
@msolga,
Quote:
Actually, hawkeye, it is not at all an unusual response, when gutless people do not like what another poster has said.


Didn't you have me on Ignore Olga on the "save the whales" thread? Or was it the "ship hitting the reef" thread.

Ignore is going much further than a down-thumb.
0 Replies
 
 

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