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Tunesia, Egyt and now Yemen: a domino effect in the Middle East?

 
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 06:56 pm
@ossobuco,
hahaha.

Meanwhile, we were right.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/03/world/middleeast/03egypt.html?exprod=myyahoo

Police and maybe army = "pro-Mubarak supporters."
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 07:00 pm
@Ceili,
Ceili-
Bush didn't "say" anything to cause this domino effect of revolution. He said that when a democracy and increased freedoms were instituted in the Middle East, others would see it, learn from it, and want it. Iraq, even through their suffering, has seen freedom of information, REAL voting, self-determination - the kind of voice in their lives that was not allowed in traditional Arab societies. Their neighbors are hearing about it and getting flashes of it.

Freedom is the ultimate elixir.

They all want it.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 07:01 pm
@spendius,
Nothing to assume; it's evident from the violence now being active without it being stopped by the police or army.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 07:08 pm
http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2011/02/201121165427186924.html

Journalists starting to look at Arab Revolution with historical perspective.
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  2  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 07:14 pm
@Lash,
With all due respect to you and Bush, I don't think he was the first to say it, nor was he alone in saying it. I'm sure anyone with any knowledge of the area has and would say the same thing. I'm sure the British were probably saying this behind the backs of leaders they put in place after the war, the second one, you know back in the '40's.

Iraq has paid a pretty awful price for these freedoms and it would have probably happened without foreign intervention.
fbaezer
 
  3  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 07:35 pm
As I wrote on my one and only post before this one on this thread (it seems like eons ago), the key factor in all Arab countries rising is the army.

What to say about the Egiptian army's passivity while the Mubarak squads attacked the protestors?
Either or.
Either the military are siding clearly with Mubarak, or they are hoping there is more chaos, so they -and not Mubarak- can reap on it. Offer order to both the Egyptian society and the Western powers. Offer (inside) democracy tomorrow but no democracy today and (outside) elections but with some guarantee the fundamentalists won't take power.

Europe has clearly been left behind in its former colonies. France blew it totally (they offered anti-riot gear to the Tunisian dictator 48 hours before his demise... where was their "intelligence"?), the UE seemed clueless (and more worried about a wave of Magreb immigrants than about anything else), while the US is fastly correcting its positions, thus guaranteeing a relatively bigger role in the zone, as old Europe's keeps on fading.
(Not that the US will be really influential, but it won't lose as much ground).
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 07:36 pm
@Ceili,
Ceili wrote:

Iraq has paid a pretty awful price for these freedoms and it would have probably happened without foreign intervention.


Whether it was worth the price paid is something Iraqis will determine, but how have you reached the conclusion that "it" probably would have happened without foreign intervention?

Because of the rich and consistent history of successful democratic revolutions in the Middle East?

Or you have looked into a crystal ball and found that the current unrest in the region is going to have a happy ending?

I certainly hope it does, but there is no reason to be certain it will and less reason that what is happening in Tunisia, Jordan and Egypt would have been possible in a Saddam controlled Iraq.

The Egyptian military has shown a restraint that would have been very unlikely in Iraq. The US government may not be pulling their strings but there are almost $3 billion reasons a year for them to care how they are regarded by Washington. Saddam's Iraq, much like today's Iran, has no such concern, and like Iran would have had no problem in unleashing the dogs to tear apart the reformists.

Recall that a Saddam who, after being battered in the first Gulf War, made short work of the Shia and Kurdish rebellions that followed. There was no firing weapons in the air for Saddam's troops, they got straight to the point and used chemical weapons.

It's a very romantic notion that the hunger of a people for freedom and self-determination will win out against all odds, but rebellions are a far more complex scenario wherein brute force and the ruthlessness required to wield it decisively often rip spirited courage to shreds.

Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 07:56 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Because change is inevitable.
Because the internet has given these people an eye on the world they'd never had before. Because Saddam wasn't loved in that part of the world and plenty of his neighbours and citizens would at some point risen up in anger and disgust again and again until the inevitable. And because most dictators don't die in warm beds in their hometown..

But you can think it was Bush who did/called it too. It's all about the Americans and without them nothing positive in this world would happen without you all... but it's more complex than that, right?

Or you can see that educated people, or hungry people or angry people will fight when enough is enough. And because it is happening, right before our very eyes.
Just as it happened in South America, or in many places in Asia. Democracy is not an American invention, in fact, Egypt is just a stones throw from it's birthplace.
I don't know the what the outcome of this demonstration will be, my Crystal ball is just as muddy as yours, but it's pretty clear to me that whatever happens, it's going to change regardless of what Americans or any other nation's opinion is..
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 07:58 pm
3:46 am Skirmishes continue, with rocks and Molotov cocktails being fired off between anti-government protesters and Mubarak's supporters.

3:15 am Anti-government protesters are collecting rocks at a couple of the entrances to Tahrir Square in preparation to an attack. One of our Web producers reports that almost everyone in the square seems injured, is bandaged and limping. The mood there is "pretty fatalistic" with the anti-government protesters certain that the pro-Mubarak forces are "there to eliminate them".

3:01 am Al Jazeera's correspondent and Web producer report: Heavy police presence at the national museum, with anti-government protesters banging on metal railings and rocks raining down. Pro-Mubarak protesters have an "endless supply of molotov cocktails" that they're tossing at the anti-government demonstrators.

2:26 am AJE Web producer reports that tension is rising at Kasr al Nil (bridge) entrance to Tahrir Square, saying "They expect an attack here."

2:03 am The fire at the residential building seems to have subsided.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 08:03 pm
@fbaezer,
We allow the world community to ignore these kinds of crisis, because they know that the US is stupid enough to get involved. We end up spending billions and the sacrifice of our men and women in our military for a cause that's not our responsibility.

Our government continues to believe we are the world' police.

Just stupid!
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  2  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 08:06 pm
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/02/02/us.egypt.unrest/

Quote:
High-level contacts between the U.S. and Egyptian governments continued Wednesday, with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton talking to newly appointed Egyptian Vice President Omar Suleiman, Crowley said. And Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell said Defense Secretary Robert Gates spoke by phone with Egypt's defense minister on Wednesday, their third conversation in recent days.

Those contacts followed separate meetings on Monday between former U.S. ambassador to Egypt Frank Wisner, who traveled to Cairo to deliver a message on behalf of Obama, with Mubarak and Suleiman, according to Crowley.

A senior State Department official said on condition of not being identified that Mubarak has "a narrow amount of time" to make changes or take steps, with more demonstrations planned for Friday. However, the official said "there is a sentiment in the (Egyptian) government they can outlive the protesters."

"This is a false assumption," the official said. "They are not going away."


Quote:
However, an Egyptian government official said on condition of not being identified that his government has a "serious problem" with how the Obama administration has been "spinning" the events to give the impression that Mubarak's statement Tuesday night resulted from pressure from Obama.

"This is Mubarak's decision," the Egyptian official said. "Clearly, yes, he has been listening to the messages coming from the administration ... but at the end of the day, this is a decision he had come to on his own in the interests of Egypt, first and foremost, and as he said, as a result of listening very carefully to the demands of the Egyptian people."

The Egyptian official said his government has rejected calls by Obama and other world leaders to begin the transition now.

"This is an Egyptian process," the official said. "What President Mubarak said is that his primary responsibility is to ensure security and order so as to ensure a peaceful transfer of power so that the Egyptian people may decide their next leader in the upcoming presidential elections."
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  3  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 08:23 pm
@Ceili,
Nice speech, but not much of an answer.

You clearly have a chip on your shoulder when it comes to America and Americans.

I've not claimed Bush is responsible for what is happening in the Middle East right now, and I don't think that without America, nothing positive would happen in the world.

I also have not made a unsupportable claim that Iraqis would have, without American intervention, overthrown Saddam simply so that I could punctuate an expression of my feelings for America.

Obviously educated people, or hungry people or angry people will fight when enough is enough, and very often they will be crushed.

Yes, if you wait long enough everything changes, but how many people were born, grew up and died in an autocratic Egypt? How many fought when enough was enough and were crushed? The change you consider inevitable didn't occur in their lifetimes, but of course they didn't have the magic internet to set everything right.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 08:32 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

More evidence-free assertions. What source have you read, which shows that the Iraq war or the situation there was what spurred this event?

I think, instead, it's simply convenient for you to try and justify previous foolishness on your party's part by latching on to events.

Unless you can provide some evidence of causation, I don't know why you think anyone here finds your statements compelling.

Cycloptichorn
a

It is more than a little odd that you so rudely and freely demand of others that which you so rarely provide yourself in your unqualified and categorical opinions presented as fact.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 08:34 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

[Before calling me or anyone here a 'fingers in ears' group, provide one bit of evidence. Show that you know the difference between correlation and causation in things like this.

I think that former Bush supporters have been secretly hoping for years for some sort of event to take place that they could then turn to their advantage, claiming that it was the result of something he did. In an attempt to quiet the cognitive dissonance that results from realizing that they spent years defending a truly foolish man who made mistake after mistake.

Enough sidebar for me, don't want to derail the thread any further.

Cycloptichorn


Translation, I certainly don't want to deal with anyone asking me for proof of my many unsoilicited expressions of opinion presented as though they were facts.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 08:36 pm
@georgeob1,
I don't believe that I make a habit of making evidence-free assertions on a regular basis, George. And you know that I have always maintained that it's appropriate to ask for sources to back up claims, and that when asked for sources, I try and provide them or admit that I don't have any.

Quote:

Translation, I certainly don't want to deal with anyone asking me for proof of my many unsoilicited expressions of opinion presented as though they were facts.


All you have to do is ask about any subject you like. But as you've never provided or attempted to provide any evidence to back up any of your positions, I think that you probably ought to examine your own behavior before doing so.

I believe I have struck a nerve with my comments.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 08:39 pm
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/02/201122171649677912.html

Quote:
Calls for weekend protests in Syria
Social media used in bid to mobilise Syrians for rallies demanding freedom, human rights and the end to emergency law.

Calls for protests in Syria are spreading on social media websites, following popular uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt.

Organisers say protests will be staged in front of the parliament in the capital, Damascus, on Friday and Saturday, and at Syrian embassies across the world.

Several pages have been set up on Facebook, with the most popular one, named "The Syrian Revolution", "liked" by about 12,000 people by Thursday.

However, many of those writing comments on Facebook appeared to be Syrians living abroad calling on their "brothers" at home to protest.

Sources in Syria told Al Jazeera they doubted that the calls for protests would really result in much action on the ground.

"I think the day of anger will turn out to be no more than a day of mild frustration," one journalist told Al Jazeera.

"There's no appetite for regime change in Syria as there has been in Egypt for a while. The president isn't hated as much as [Hosni] Mubarak, or seen as out of touch. Also, the local context is very different ... and the poverty rate is significantly lower in Egypt."

One Facebook page said demonstrations would start on Friday outside the Syrian embassises in Canada, US, UK, Sweden and Denmark.

"For all the fine Syrians who live outside the Syria ... you can help your brothers in Syria by demonstrating in front of Syrian embassy where you live, the same day and same time," the site administrator wrote.

'We want freedom'

Sami Abdullah, a civil society activist from the initiative "Angry Day Syria", using Facebook and the microblogging site Twitter to gather support, said he expected "a lot" of people to turn up for rallies in the cities of Damascus, Homs, Aleppo and Qamishli.

"Maybe half of those on the Facebook sites are in Syria," he told Al Jazeera from a neighbouring country. "No one can talk to the Syrian media for security reasons.

"Many civil society groups in Syria have called for protests ... We want freedom, human rights and the end to emergency law."
Activists say Syria needs
a 'day of anger'

There were also reports that a pro-government demonstration would be held to coincide with other rallies.

Facebook is officially blocked in Syria since November 2007. However, many young Syrians bypass the hurdle by using proxy servers and in August last year, there were about 30,000 Facebook users registered in the country.

Security forces prevented on Saturday young people from gathering outside the Egyptian embassy in Damascus in support of the mass protests in Cairo calling for Mubarak's resignation.

As in Egypt, government critics in Syria complain of corruption and limitations to political freedom and human rights.

"Syria's authorities detained political and human rights activists, restricted freedom of expression, repressed its Kurdish minority, and held people incommunicado for lengthy periods, often torturing them, during 2010", the US-based Human Rights Watch said in a report issued last week.

The official unemployment rate is around 10 per cent, but some analysts say as many as every fourth Syrian is actually without a job.

However, Syria has undergone significant changes since Bashar al-Assad became president after his father Hafez's death in 2000, including slowly opening up the economy.

"Despite all troubles here, I don't think and don't hope that Syria will be the next [country to see an uprising] for too many reasons. My country is still not ready for such an experiment and the president here is not really hated," one young Syrian told Al Jazeera.

'Stability first'

In an interview earlier this week, al-Assad told the Wall Street Journal that the ongoing protests in the region were ushering in a "new era" in the Middle East, and that Arab rulers would need to do more to accommodate their people's rising political and economic aspirations.

He said he would push through political reforms this year aimed at initiating municipal elections, granting more power to nongovernmental organisations and establishing a new media law.

However, he said stability and economy were higher on his agenda than political reforms.

"Reform in politics is important but it is not as important and urgent as the people waking every day and they want to eat, to have good health, to send their children to good schools. That is what they want," al-Assad said.

"I want to feel safe in my own country. That is my goal."

He also told the Wall Street Journal that a domino effect with unrest spreading from Egypt and Tunisia to Syria was unlikely because his country is different.

"We have more difficult circumstances than most of the Arab countries but in spite of that Syria is stable. Why? Because you have to be very closely linked to the beliefs of the people. This is the core issue. When there is divergence between your policy and the people's beliefs and interests, you will have this vacuum that creates disturbance."

But, in a possible reaction to the the recent events in Tunisia, where the president, Zine El Abidine Ben Ali, was driven from power by unrest triggered partly by soaring prices, the Syrian government announced late last month that it had increased the heating oil allowance for public workers by 72 per cent to the equivalent of $33 a month.

Calls for protests in a numer of Middle East countries are circulating on Twitter, including Yemen, February 3, Algeria, February 12, Bahrain, February 14 and Libya, February 30.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 08:46 pm
4:45 am Ramy Raoof, an anti-Mubarak activist at Tahrir Square, tells Al Jazeera that anti-government protesters are guarding all the entrances of the square as they are anticipating another attack from pro-Mubarak forces.

4:23 am Reuters reports that one protester has been killed. Our correspondent reports that the tank on the bridge has positioned itself is in the direction of the gunfire, toward where the anti-government protesters are, at a smaller square near Tahrir Square.

4:20 am Gunfire ricocheting off the October 6 bridge, with a tank moving toward where anti-government protesters are.

4:16 am AJE Web producer reports that there is automatic heavy caliber gunfire at Tahrir Square, which is probably the army trying to keep people at bay. "So much gunfire," he says. There are reports of seven people being wounded.

4:01 am Mubarak supporters take down a poster of the Egyptian president rather than risk having it burned by anti-government protesters, who were lobbing petrol bombs at it earlier.
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Ceili
 
  2  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 08:56 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Ya know, I get really tired of Americans who can't handle not being the centre of attention telling anyone else with an opinion contrary to the party line they have a chip on their shoulder.
I don't. I'll repeat it again so George sees it too.

Sorry I don't think that the USA is the lone light in the darkness of the world. I'm sorry I don't think much of Bush, and that he wasn't a knight in shining armour for Democracy. However, if you re-read what I wrote, I didn't say you were Bushes boy, I said you could if you wanted to believe he's the all seeing sage like others. Plenty of American citizens are smart enough to know that what is happening in Egypt is not about the USA, you or me, it's about them. period.
The US has as much pull right now in Egypt as Canada, or Poland or Timbuktu.
Democracy is not an American institution and as I've pointed out, plenty of nations have overthrown their dictators without your intervention. Your government has though, pumped money to plenty of dictators and in many cases been responsible for putting them in power. Just like Saddam or Pinochet or countless Pakistanis.... While you might not believe in other nations or their people rising up and fighting for what they want, it has happened and it will, regardless of the USA. Of course it's unsupportable to prove Iraq would have risen up, history took another path and the people in Iraq were denied the opportunity.
That doesn't mean it would never have happened.

This revolution may be crushed or it might not, but whatever happens change will come, for better or worse.
What pisses me off is the constant American belief that they are somehow in control and what they say goes, ridiculous.
Go back and read this whole thread. There is so much conjecture about the American position. Why? What do you have to do with this, other than giving a dictator a boat load of money? and possibly being shut out of future negotiations with a future government who could possibly be very angry with you all.

That being said, revolutions have been squashed countless times before, but... many have succeeded. Who can predict what the future holds. How many talking heads foresaw this week in the middle east last week?
You can blow off the internet, that's your right. I think it's a huge part of what is going on in Egypt. You don't. ok.
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 08:56 pm
MSNBC is streaming live -- say there is another intervention from pro-Mubarak forces commencing -- tear gas being fired into crowds -- anti-government crowd has attacked a pick up truck, pulled driver from truck to beat him and are now stripping the truck of parts.

Heavy gunfire breaking out. Many buildings in the area are burning.
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Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 09:06 pm
5:06 am Our correspondent says it seems that anti-government protesters on the bridge seem to be running from gunfire.

4:52 am Tanks andarmoured vehicles are pulling out of Tahrir Square, and one of our Web producer reports that two anti-Mubarak protesters are carried away, one shot in the head.

4:48 am AJE correspondents report that anti-government protesters have chased Mubarak supporters off the October 6 Bridge.
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