53
   

Tunesia, Egyt and now Yemen: a domino effect in the Middle East?

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 11:30 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Now if the ICC were to make an inquiry about political rights in China that would be an indication that the world has elevated itself to a new plane, as I believe you may be suggesting. ...

Well, no, actually I haven't suggested any such thing, George.

Quote:
I am reminded of Kissinger's old quip about why disputes involving academic rivalries in Universities such as Harvard are fought with such persistent tenacity... "Because the stakes are so low", he opined.

You'll have to explain the significance of that analogy, George.
Which stakes concerning Libya in the UN are so low?
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 11:42 pm
@msolga,
Good God, he's said it about three times. Qaddafy has NO FRIENDS. He's mortally wounded. The ICC can be all big and bad toward him because he's ostracized and devoid of allies. It's like the last coward walking up on a crumpled kid in the street, and kicking him and running away. He's already been beaten.

If the ICC is ever going to mean anything in this world, they should take on a powerful country who is flaunting human rights violations - ie China.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 11:44 pm
@Lash,
That wasn't what I was talking about, Lash.
Go back & read what I've posted.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  3  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 11:45 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
Which stakes concerning Libya in the UN are so low?

If you didn't want the answer to this question, I'd suggest not asking it.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 11:47 pm
@Lash,
Why on earth would I ask if I didn't want a response from George about a comment he made? Confused
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 11:48 pm
@msolga,
The next step would be listening to his answer.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 11:51 pm
@Lash,
Yes, which I'd love to hear!
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 11:57 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Quote:
Now if the ICC were to make an inquiry about political rights in China that would be an indication that the world has elevated itself to a new plane, as I believe you may be suggesting. ...

Well, no, actually I haven't suggested any such thing, George.
Agreed, however I am suggesting that if the ICC were anything at all like what its propagandists sometimes suggest, that would be possible. That it is not possible reminds us just how unserious the ICC really is.

msolga wrote:

Quote:
I am reminded of Kissinger's old quip about why disputes involving academic rivalries in Universities such as Harvard are fought with such persistent tenacity... "Because the stakes are so low", he opined.

You'll have to explain the significance of that analogy, George.
Which stakes concerning Libya in the UN are so low?
I was suggesting that the present sound and fury about the disposal of Ghadaffi through the ICC is an indicator of the fact that he and his exit from power are considered to be inconsequential by the nations with an interest in the situation. They are content to allow the ICC to work its way precisely because Ghadaffi doesn't matter at all to any of them.

I'll acknowledge a deep personal bias against the idealism of the various reformers of mankind who have stained the pages of history. Some excuse their misdeeds with the presumed nobility of their aims. However I am mindful of the millions of human lives wasted and destroyed in the futile and perversely wicked effort to create a new socialist man in the ill-fated Marxist paradises of Russia and China. I believe that illustrates a general proposition about all attempts to reform humanity in our world. The best we can do is limited government which acknowledges the realities of human nature and is content to merely limit the evils humans do to one another. More than that brings out the very worst in us.

I believe this is what is behind our very different perspectives on the world.

Now you've got me recalling more of ole Fitz and Kayyam;

Think, in this batter'd Caravanserai
Whose Doorways are alternate Night and Day,
How Sultan after Sultan with his Pomp
Abode his Hour or two, and went his way.
...
I sometimes think that never blows so red
The Rose as where some buried Caesar bled;
That every Hyacinth the Garden wears
Dropt in its Lap from some once lovely Head.

And this delightful Herb whose tender Green
Fledges the River's Lip on which we lean--
Ah, lean upon it lightly! for who knows
From what once lovely Lip it springs unseen!

Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2011 12:01 am
Sayre's Law
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2011 12:16 am
@Lash,
You've taught me something new ! I had never heard of Sayere or the law attributed to him. Interestingly, about 20 years ago I heard Kissinger make that quip at a conference I attended. Now I know he was plagarizing.

Thanks !
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2011 12:18 am
@Lash,
Quote:
If the ICC is ever going to mean anything in this world, they should take on a powerful country who is flaunting human rights violations - ie China.


You've forgotten the USA, Lash. Wonder why that is? China isn't flaunting human rights violations, they are and have committed them. I think we should have a bang up old party and get China, Russia and the US into the ICC.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2011 12:22 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
However I am mindful of the millions of human lives wasted and destroyed in the futile and perversely wicked effort to create a new socialist man in the ill-fated Marxist paradises of Russia and China.


If you possessed a modicum, even an iota of honesty, you should be mindful of and never fail to mention the war crimes that you took part in, Gob. There were millions killed in that little venture.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2011 12:38 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I am suggesting that if the ICC were anything at all like what its propagandists sometimes suggest, that would be possible. That it is not possible reminds us just how unserious the ICC really is

I think the "propagandists" as you call them, are in fact advocates of an international criminal court (the ICC) , whose stated purpose is prosecuting those suspected of having committed genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes.
I see no reason not to support those goals.
What other organization would you suggest do this work?
Or perhaps no organization should?

Quote:
I was suggesting that the present sound and fury about the disposal of Ghadaffi through the ICC is an indicator of the fact that he and his exit from power are considered to be inconsequential by the nations with an interest in the situation.

I haven't come across too much sound & fury, George.
So the non-signatory countries supported this resolution because Libya is of little consequence? I think that's what you're saying?
There is no doubt in almost anyone's mind that Gaddafi has perpetrated crimes against humanity in Libya. But this is not just about Gaddafi.
The question is, why shouldn't those (presently) non-signatory nations support the goals of the ICC in principal & become members? It's OK to pick and choose which human rights violations can be prosecuted when it suits them & ignore others when it doesn't suit them?
That doesn't make sense to me at all, say nothing of being an inconsistent position on human rights violations.
Unlike you, I think supporting the goals of the ICC has less to do with "idealism" & considerably more to do with justice.

hingehead
 
  3  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2011 12:51 am
@Lash,
Quote:
I remember Reagan being a bit unpopular in these parts for helping the resistance there...


Still is, in my book. Funding assholes to kill assholes isn't the high point of US foreign policy:
Quote:
The Contras is a label given to the various rebel groups opposing Nicaragua's FSLN (Frente Sandinista de Liberación Nacional) Sandinista Junta of National Reconstruction government following the July 1979 overthrow of Anastasio Somoza Debayle's dictatorship. Although the Contra movement included a number of separate groups, with different aims and little ideological unity, the Nicaraguan Democratic Force (FDN) emerged as by far the largest. In 1987, virtually all Contra organizations were united, at least nominally, into the Nicaraguan Resistance.

From an early stage, the rebels received both overt and covert financial and military support from the United States government through the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), initially supplemented by the Argentine dictatorship of the time. At other times the US Congress wished to distance itself from the Contras and withdrew all overt support.

The term "Contra" comes from the Spanish contra, which means against but in this case is short for la contrarrevolucion, in English "the counter-revolution". (Many references use the uncapitalized form, "contra", sometimes italicizing it.) Some rebels disliked being called Contras, feeling that it defined their cause only in negative terms, or implied a desire to restore the old order. Rebel fighters usually referred to themselves as comandos ("commandos"); peasant sympathizers also called the rebels los primos ("the cousins"). From the mid-1980s, as the Reagan administration and the rebels sought to portray the movement as the "democratic resistance," members started describing themselves as la resistencia.

During the war against the Sandinista government, they carried out many violations of human rights. Their supporters in Miami and the White House usually countered that the Sandinista government carried out more such violations, but in retrospect it is clear that they downplayed the severity of the abuses of the contras. In 1989, Human Rights Watch released a report on the situation, which stated: "[The] contras were major and systematic violators of the most basic standards of the laws of armed conflict, including by launching indiscriminate attacks on civilians, selectively murdering non-combatants, and mistreating prisoners." Several other human rights organizations, including the Catholic Institute for International Relations, released similar reports, each coming to roughly the same conclusions.


Heh, I feel like I'm arguing with when I'm actually agreeing. I'd rather see any military assistance for the Libyans come from their Arab neighbours - sadly the only two with the empathy are still in the dawn of their newly acquired dictator-free statuses. The rest are wondering if they're next for the chop. Like I said pages ago, the US has a very tricky path to tread - and the TED talk that Ceili(?) posted speaks volumes what US involvement can mean on the ground.

Stephen Colbert on how supplying weapons can save the US economy.
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/376077/march-02-2011/the-word---economic-boom
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2011 01:17 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

There is no doubt in almost anyone's mind that Gaddafi has perpetrated crimes against humanity in Libya. But this is not just about Gaddafi.
The question is, why shouldn't those (presently) non-signatory nations support the goals of the ICC in principal & become members? It's OK to pick and choose which human rights violations can be prosecuted when it suits them & ignore others when it doesn't suit them?
That doesn't make sense to me at all, say nothing of being an inconsistent position on human rights violations.
Unlike you, I think supporting the goals of the ICC has less to do with "idealism" & considerably more to do with justice.



OK, now you are back to discussing why powerful nations scorn the ICC again. Shall I take the bait again and respond, or shall I merely await your later rebuke for digressing and ignoring the pressing issue of the moment? What the hell - I'm an agreeable guy and I'll trust you - again.

Do you think the ICC and its minders don't also "pick and choose which human rights violations can be prosecuted" ??????? Where have you been for the past ten years?

I don't think that powerful nations such as China, India, Russia, and the United States would ever trust their vital interests to the concepts of justice that prevail in the real world today. Again, please remember that the real international community you wish to empower - not the one you imagine, the real one - appointed Ghadaffi's government to head the UN Human Rights Commission. There is a lot of insincere sappy rhetoric out there used to dupe credulous souls into the belief that the "international community" is interested in justice. The observable fact is that it is not interested in justice at all. It is interested in it's own petty local disputes, revenge, and all the other familiar human appetites.

Through some interesting and unusual turns of history my country was able to escape its colonial past and form a so far very long-lasting democracy that, for good or ill (good I think) has been one of a very few models for the world. I'm well aware that you think ill of us, but I find your perspective to be woefully detached from the realities of history and the competing alternatives to American power. Don't confuse the mere lack of temptation or opportunity with virtue. ( Think of Grey's Elegy ... "What Cromwell guiltless of his country's blood ...")

I think I will wait until the world makes a bit more progress than it has so far done before I would be willing to turn our reins over to it. You are free to do otherwise, just don't ask me to follow merely because you have lost your way.

Finally, on what scale do you put Ghadaffi's supposed crimes against humanity compared to those that have occurred in Zimbabwe, China (I'm thinking of the cultural revolution) Bosnia, Croatia, Liberia, Iran, Cuba and many other places. Ghadaffi is in fact a small time amateur. I find it both odd and incongruous that you have focused on this little problem while ignoring the others. Has it occurred to you that you and the International community are a bit hypocritical?
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2011 01:45 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I think I will wait until the world makes a bit more progress than it has so far done before I would be willing to turn our reins over to it. You are free to do otherwise, just don't ask me to follow merely because you have lost your way.

George, you say some very funny things sometimes. Smile







0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2011 03:15 am
@hingehead,
Yep. Cheers.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2011 06:35 am
Our news media have lost all sense of objectivity in regard to Libya.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2011 08:00 am
Mubarak critic asked to form caretaker government

Quote:
EGYPTIAN PEOPLE power scored a fresh victory yesterday when Essam Sharaf was named prime minister by the governing military council and asked to form a new caretaker government.

Dr Sharaf, a professor of engineering, served as transport minister between 2004-2006 but he resigned following a series of deadly train crashes he blamed on government negligence.

A critic of the old regime, he led one of the protests that precipitated the resignation of former president Hosni Mubarak.

Several thousand activists in Tahrir (Liberation) Square greeted the news by dancing and chanting: “The people and the army are one hand.”

Nobel laureate Mohamed ElBaradei called the appointment “a step on the right path” and expressed his “appreciation to the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces for meeting the demands of the people”.

Al-Ghad party head and declared presidential candidate Ayman Nour welcomed the move. “Farewell to the bosom friend of Mubarak and welcome to Sharaf.”


0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2011 08:09 am
@Lash,
Quote:
Good God, he's said it about three times. Qaddafy has NO FRIENDS. He's mortally wounded


He may be mortally wounded and has no friends, but if he is, then he is an armed mortally wounded friendless 'victim' and as such should be taken seriously.

Police fire tear gas on anti-Gaddafi protesters in Tripoli

Quote:
Security forces in the Libyan capitol of Tripoli have fired tear gas on hundreds of protesters who gathered on the streets after Friday prayers.

Loyalists to Moammar Gaddafi, including secret police, have tightened security at strategic area of Tripoli, which remains a pro-regime stronghold.

Worshippers reportedly streamed out of a mosque in the center of Tripoli, chanting "Gaddafi is the enemy of God.”

According to Reuters, one protester said "This is the end for Gaddafi. It's over. Forty years of crimes are over.”

There was also a heavy police presence in the Tripoli district of Tajoura, where Gaddafi’s forces are exerting control to dissuade demonstrations.

"They fired tear gas," a Reuters reporter in Tajoura said. "I heard shooting. People are scattering."
There have been accounts of arrests, detentions, disappearances and killings in Tripoli and elsewhere over the past few days.

Foreign journalists in Tripoli have been hampered by security guards who are blocking their movements around the city. Internet service is also reportedly disrupted in Tripoli and the eastern city of Benghazi.

Similar demonstrations last Friday after prayers resulted in bloodshed with security forces firing on unarmed protesters.

Meanwhile, Gaddafi’s soldiers have reportedly launched more air strikes on rebel bases in the eastern part of the country. A warplane bombed the Mediterranean port of Ajdabiya, which is controlled by rebels.

"For the people of Ajdabiya, these men are martyrs to their revolution. And the more of their comrades who are killed, the more they are determined to defeat Muammar Gaddafi," reported Jacky Rowland, an Al Jazeera correspondent.

Gaddafi’s pilots carried out a second day of bombing runs on the harbor of Brega, which houses Libya’s second-biggest oil facility and is now in the hands of the opposition, according to the Al Arabiya news network.

"We are people who fight, we don't surrender," said opposition leader Mustafa Abdel-Jalil, and a former government minister, according to Reuters. "Victory or death. We will not stop till we liberate all this country."

Other clashes between rebels and Gaddafi loyalists have been reported in the towns of Ras Lanuf, an eastern oil port, and in Az-Zawiyah, which is west of Tripoli.

 

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