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Tunesia, Egyt and now Yemen: a domino effect in the Middle East?

 
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 07:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
The silence is of the third observer, not the victim. We are observing Libya--the whole world is. Do we say nothing? What does it mean if WE say nothing? Obviously, the Libyans are not silent
THAT is a massive step back, just a bit ago you where claiming that we had an imperative to DO something.

It's not a step back. Put fewer words in my mouth, and more marbles in your own.

Obama was too wishy washy with the US's response on Egypt. Who knows how many more died during inaction. Things could have progressed and resolution could have come earlier.

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failures art
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 07:19 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I didn't say military action. Why this is the first thing that comes to mind when I use the word "response" says more about you folk. In this thread we've talked much about how many states (the US keeps coming up) need to have a cohesive message on where they stand and to what degree violence and aggression is tolerated. Obama blew it in Egypt, and as things are escalating in other countries, they should take it as a teachable moment.

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failures art
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 07:27 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

Art -
There are a lot of people saying that the US should keep our nose out of it.

So, for some of us, though I can't speak for George - hearing the suggestion that the US might be remiss because we're standing back an allowing MEsterners to handle their own shite - is a wee bit rankling.

Surely you can understand.

Oh I'm very sensitive to that. I very much am weary of getting too involved. I mean really, are we so incapacitated that the only way we now how to support or pressure is through military action? I expect more, and I think we can afford to not ride the fence. I understand we're not popular in the region, and I don't think we need to fight this fight for them. They should still have our support in other ways, or know they can reach out for it.

The use of aircraft like this represents a significant elevation of conflict. Something has to be said.

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hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 07:28 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
Obama was too wishy washy with the US's response on Egypt. Who knows how many more died during inaction. Things could have progressed and resolution could have come earlier
there is that superiority complex I was speaking of....American speaking has more to do with our influence in the region going forwards, with ending this simmering feud between Islam and the West, than it does about our influence over current events.

Dont get me wrong, I am all for making a stand for what we believe in, but we need to learn to let other people and peoples live their own lives, and the stench of fundamentalist morality intertwined with hypocrisy that Americans reek of has gotten to be way too much for most of our peers to tolerate. We need to understand this before we open our mouths.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 07:28 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

The UN should issue a statement....

Most definitely. I'm not saying that it has to be us, or us alone, but there needs to be some show of solidarity against extreme violence like this.

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failures art
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 07:31 pm
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:

From al-Jazeera live blog today:

4:35pm: The World Economic Forum has suspended Seif Gaddafi from its Forum of Young Global Leaders group.


This I like. These kinds of measures start to refute the legitimacy and authority of a regime. This is a good example of a firm response. I think the more they pile on from different bodies the better.

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hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 07:40 pm
@Lash,
Quote:
Damned when we do, and damned when we don't. I'm so ******* sick of the hypocrisy.

You're very thin skinned on this point Lash - you've mentioned it a few times. So would you prefer that the US were never involved or always involved? Each situation has it's own merits, if I agree with one response in one situation and disagree with the same response in another situation does that make me hypocrite?

When the US fucks up (IMO) I don't hold you responsible, likewise when it succeeds (IMO) I discount your contribution. Taking personal offence about comments about your nation's activities is, well, very Middle Eastern of you. Or maybe you don't use '*******' as a magnifier, but to maintain iambic pentameter? You should move to Australia!

For the record I think unilateral US intervention would be insane. I've said before on this thread the US treads a difficult path in these struggles - offering even moral support to the protestors taints their protests in the eyes of neutrals. I think the UN is a better vehicle, but I don't think uninvited military intervention is smart even if the US were to bow out of it completely.

Sadly the sort of seismic change the protestors are attempting in their various political systems is going to cost lives and can't be settled by outside interests no matter how well meaning, all the international community can do is try and minimise long term suffering of the general population regardless of the eventual outcome.
dyslexia
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 07:40 pm
@failures art,
perhaps BP could be denied permits for exporting oil from Libya.
Irishk
 
  3  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 07:43 pm
@failures art,
The UN did issue a statement today. From the L.A. Times:

Quote:
U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon spoke with longtime Libyan leader Moammar Kadafi on Monday, Reuters reported.

Ban had an extensive discussion with Kadafi, condemned the escalating violence in Libya and told him it "must stop immediately," a U.N. spokesman told Reuters.


hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 07:43 pm
@dyslexia,
Quote:
perhaps BP could be denied permits for exporting oil from Libya.

Or if you really want to hurt Libya let BP setup some offshore oil rigs in their EEZ.
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 08:00 pm
Muammar Gaddafi appeared on state television for less than a minute -- wearing a wooly hat beneath an umbrella....

From the BBC translation:

Quote:
"I am satisfied, because I was speaking in front of the youth in the Green Square tonight, but the rain came praise to God it bears well," he said.

"I want to clarify for them that I am in Tripoli not in Venezuela. Do not believe these channels - they are dogs. Good-bye."


georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 08:14 pm
@failures art,
failures art wrote:

Obama was too wishy washy with the US's response on Egypt. Who knows how many more died during inaction. Things could have progressed and resolution could have come earlier.

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What, exactly should Obama have done, or probably more accurately, said ? Tough words with no real intent for action to back them up aren't likely to deflect a desperate despot trying to hold on to his position. Indeed even a very palpable threat of action didn't do anything to reduce the killings Saddam inflicted on the Iraqis. In general talk with no action to back it up is worse than silence - it is a public demonstration of impotence or indifference. (Perhaps it could bee seen as a salve to the consciences of some airheads, but that is not a serious benefit and certainly not something likely to deflect a despot ready to kill his opponents.)

I suspect that is precisely why Sec. Clinton chose to simply make a press release, rather than some dramatic spoken pronouncment.

The truth is neither the African Union, nor the nearby European powers have any appetite for intervention of any kind. Certainly the remaining authoritarian Muslim states aren't going to do or say anything either. In these circumstances, what would a little scolding from us do?

Consider, for a moment the ghastly killings in Croatia and Bosnia following the breakup of the former Yugoslavia, and how long it took and how much effort was required to induce the European powers to do something about the ethnic cleansing going on in their own backyards. Consider also how long the killings continued in Southern Sudan before any concerted action by neighboring states and the major powers could be mobilized. Consider China's seizure of Tibet; the oppression and starvation in North Korea; 50 years of poverty and oppression in Cuba -- these are all evils as bad or worse than what is going on in Lybia.

Consider also the errors and unanticipated side effects of U.S. attempts at intervention, and the nearly world-wide hostility we get as a result. It simply isn't worth the candle: better to simply look out for our own real interests.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 08:34 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Consider also the errors and unanticipated side effects of U.S. attempts at intervention, and the nearly world-wide hostility we get as a result. It simply isn't worth the candle: better to simply look out for our own real interests.
For instance keeping the crude flowing. Americans are so out of it that we assume that because we have an active charge card (in the name of our kids) that we will always be able to buy what we need. Not so, as we have seen multiple times over the last five years in the food, ore and energy "markets". It is now as much about who is wanting to buy as it is about how much they are willing to pay. Food, ore and energy are now often traded in long term contracts between two parties that are involved in a strategic alliance, if the producer does not want to deal with you being willing to pay 20% more than the other guy no longer is a sure bet to coming home with the goods.

Just one of the many proofs that the global free market theorists did not have the first ******* clue what they were talking about...they forgot that they were dealing with humans, not numbers spitted out by 100% rational computers.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 08:44 pm
@Irishk,
Well that clears things up very nicely then! Wink

Quote:
Muammar Gaddafi appeared on state television for less than a minute -- wearing a wooly hat beneath an umbrella....

From the BBC translation:

Quote:
"I am satisfied, because I was speaking in front of the youth in the Green Square tonight, but the rain came praise to God it bears well," he said.

"I want to clarify for them that I am in Tripoli not in Venezuela. Do not believe these channels - they are dogs. Good-bye."
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 08:48 pm
@georgeob1,
Good post, georgeob1
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 08:52 pm
@msolga,
Would have been funny if there'd been a Mariachi band playing in the background...
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 08:54 pm
@Irishk,
For a minute there I thought you made that up.
(I actually had to check the BBC link to be sure.)
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 08:54 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:


Just one of the many proofs that the global free market theorists did not have the first ******* clue what they were talking about...they forgot that they were dealing with humans, not numbers spitted out by 100% rational computers.


Just one of the many proofs that Conservatives can some times say quite rational things.

When at the University I asked a bright fellow student who was writing his thesis about Walras to explain his theory in a notch. He said: "Imagine there is a huge computer that is fed with all the available economic information, it gives you a result on production, wages, prices... and it's prophetic: production, wages and prices will behave just as the computer predicts... too bad reality is completely different".
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 09:00 pm
@failures art,
Actually, I think it is a bit telling that the usual suspects that dearly loved to criticize Republican presidents' responses to world events are lock-kneed about Obama's.

It's very popular to bash the US' responses, military, covert, rhetorical or diplomatic - maybe except in Bosnia.... or Africa; though our motives are ALWAYS suspect. (see JTT)

So, at least you seem confident enough to stand up and speak.

What do YOU think of Obama's rather mild response? Would he be overstepping his boundaries to take to a podium about it? Would it appear he was nosing in to something that wasn't his business? Isn't this what the UN is for? Should world leaders closer to the ME be responsible to respond publicly to this?

I really would love to hear what you think would be the right thing to do.

Thanks.
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 09:03 pm
@hawkeye10,
The only group with a worse predictive track record than free market theorists is the entire collection of "progressive" political/economic theorists who also treat humans as interchangable bricks (as opposed to randomly shaped rocks)and try to "engineer" ideal social outcomes by choosing winners and losers. In the main this includes everyone but the free market theorists, and of course the theives, who usually come out the winners.
 

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