Was man created in god's image, or was god created in man's?

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Now, we have God essentially to explain another thing we don't have the answer for: in our case, it's Creation. Science tells us that matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but at some point there was nothing...and then there was something. Now, science don't have no answer to that, so we have God to rationalize it...and as soon as science pulls through and proves how Creating things is possible, we'll have no real reason for a God.

I believe that it's energy that can't be created or destroyed. I don't know about matter but I have heard of particles completely vanishing and new ones spontaneously forming. And it is possible that everything that is now always was, that there was no point of creation.

Naturally, on scientific matters we need proof. I have none, so I really hope that you do

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I very firmly believe that if it can't be explained by science, it's only because science hasn't yet reached that point. I love the following passage from the Banjo Paterson poem "The Hypnotist"

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A preacher I, and I take my stand
In pulpit decked with gown and band
To point the way to a better land.
With sanctimonious and reverent look
I read it out of the sacred book
That he who would open the golden door
Must give his all to the starving poor.
But I vary the practice to some extent
By investing money at twelve per cent,
And after I've preached for a decent while
I clear for 'home' with a lordly pile.
I frighten my congregation well
With fear of torment and threats of hell,
Although I know that the scientists
Can't find that any such place exists.
And when they prove it beyond mistake
That the world took millions of years to make,
And never was built by the seventh day
I say in a pained and insulted way
that 'Thomas also presumed to doubt',
And thus do I rub my opponents out.
For folks may widen their mental range,
But priest and parson, thay never change.

The poem was written in 1890. Mr Paterson was ahead of his time, and probably labelled a blasphemer.

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Regarding the likeliehood of making up God...
OK, but then how come sin and all that came into it? If I was making up a God for my own happiness, I'd say, "God created us, he is devoted to protecting us whatever we do, and he wants us to make money, get everything we can for ourselves and be successful." Wouldn't that just be easier?

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Seeker wrote:

Regarding the likeliehood of making up God...
OK, but then how come sin and all that came into it? If I was making up a God for my own happiness, I'd say, "God created us, he is devoted to protecting us whatever we do, and he wants us to make money, get everything we can for ourselves and be successful." Wouldn't that just be easier?

Actually, NO!

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Mr Stillwater wrote:

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Well, up to a coupla million years ago there was no creature called 'homo'.

Thank God for the tower of Babel!!! Somewhere along the line Mr. Webster wrote a book and proclaimed this to be a word...
God knew that HOMO's would some day exist and stated that it would be an abomination to participate in such an act WAY before Mr. Webster was even conceived.

God is real just like you.
It's a shame most of you can't see that.
I will pray for you.

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lost_my_calgon wrote:

God is real just like you.

You sound awfully sure of that.

Can you tell us how you know that -- or are you just guessing?

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It's a shame most of you can't see that.

Funny! I was just thinking what a shame it is that you cannot see that most of what you are saying here really amounts to little more than spreading guesses.

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I will pray for you.

Thank you, Lost.

I mean that!

And I will hope for you, in return.

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Frank.....
you like picking on me don't you?

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lost_my_calgon- Don't take it personally. Frank picks on EVERYBODY!

Seriously though Frank, although at times I think "thou doth protest too much", I am appreciative of your insights. I think that the issues that you bring up get my synapses firing a bit faster!

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lost_my_calgon wrote:

Frank.....
you like picking on me don't you?

Not at all, Lost.

In fact, if you think about it...I'm not picking on you at all -- at least not in the colloquial sense of "pick on me."

I just asked some appropriate questions in my previous post.

I notice you haven't answered -- or even commented on those questions.

For the record -- I have a smile on my face while reading your comments -- and I have a smile on my face while replying to them. And the smile is not forced.

I enjoy what we are discussing. You are new. I may get some fresh perspectives on issues we folks here have discussed dozens upon dozens of times.

In any case, you sound like a sincere person with opinions and perspectives you want to share -- and which you think are worth sharing.

I assure you that I am a sincere person with opinions and perspectives I want to share -- and which I consider worth sharing.

What a perfect fit!!!

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Frank Apisa wrote:

I assure you that I am a sincere person with opinions and perspectives I want to share -- and which I consider worth sharing. What a perfect fit!!!

It's Saturday afternoon and I'm not flying. So, I feel like sharing this whether it's worth sharing or not. That's as sincere as this gets. Clearly, this is not your "perfect fit".

I confess! I did it! I have discovered God!

Our observable and inferable universe, OO&IU exists.
God is OO&IU.
OO&IU is God.

Therefore, God exists.

Now all we have to do is discover the true nature of God = OO&IU and OO&IU = God: that is, discover the true nature of OO&IU=God.

Did OO&IU=God always exist?
Did OO&IU=God cause itself to exist?

What evidence do we have that anything exists that has always existed?
What evidence do we have that anything that exists created itself?

Maybe science can help answer those questions. Maybe not.

Do we serve OO&IU=God's best interests by seeking to discover what is in OO&IU=God's best interest?
Is what is in our best interests also in OO&IU=God's best interests?

What is in our best interests? Smile

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Frank Apisa:

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Every indication is that nobody knows if there is a God -- or if there are no gods. Anything definitive said on the issue is, apparently, a guess

A guess? Surely you don't classify faith as a guess. (In terms of the "if there is a God" part of your quote.)

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Frank Apisa wrote:

lost_my_calgon wrote:

Frank.....
you like picking on me don't you?

Not at all, Lost.

In fact, if you think about it...I'm not picking on you at all -- at least not in the colloquial sense of "pick on me."

I just asked some appropriate questions in my previous post.

I notice you haven't answered -- or even commented on those questions.

For the record -- I have a smile on my face while reading your comments -- and I have a smile on my face while replying to them. And the smile is not forced.

I enjoy what we are discussing. You are new. I may get some fresh perspectives on issues we folks here have discussed dozens upon dozens of times.

In any case, you sound like a sincere person with opinions and perspectives you want to share -- and which you think are worth sharing.

I assure you that I am a sincere person with opinions and perspectives I want to share -- and which I consider worth sharing.

What a perfect fit!!!

At least you're not going to "burn in the lake of fire" Rolling Eyes

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caprice wrote:

Frank Apisa:

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Every indication is that nobody knows if there is a God -- or if there are no gods. Anything definitive said on the issue is, apparently, a guess

A guess? Surely you don't classify faith as a guess. (In terms of the "if there is a God" part of your quote.)

Nope! I do not classify "faith" as a guess.

"Belief" is a guess.

"Faith" is the insistance that your guesses are more than guesses simply because you call them beliefs.

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Truth must be in the middle.
You can feel that there is a superior being or superior system than the one that you experience in the everyday life. It may not necessarily reveal itself in a clear and consistent form to you. You are probably made and protected by the existence. You make an image of a deity through the feeling you sometimes experience. The "figure" you make is in your image. You are created in the image of superior being or system, which does not necessarily take an easily perceivable form.

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Frank Asipa

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"Belief" is a guess.

"Faith" is the insistance that your guesses are more than guesses simply because you call them beliefs.

That is your "belief" Frank, and by your own admission, beliefs are guesses. Wink

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caprice wrote:

Frank Asipa

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"Belief" is a guess.

"Faith" is the insistance that your guesses are more than guesses simply because you call them beliefs.

That is your "belief" Frank, and by your own admission, beliefs are guesses.

Sorry, Caprice, but that truly is not a "belief" -- and I can assure you that if I make a guess about something -- I will identify it as a guess rather than try to disquise the fact that I am guessing by calling it a "belief." :wink:

You asked me a question about what I meant -- I answered it.

By the way...if you want to talk with me about any "beliefs" you have that you suppose are not guesses -- I'm up for it.

(One last thought -- "guesses" include things like "estimates.")

EDIT: Added that last thought so that we are clear on that!)

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Frank Apisa wrote:

By the way...if you want to talk with me about any "beliefs" you have that you suppose are not guesses -- I'm up for it.
(One last thought -- "guesses" include things like "estimates.")
EDIT: Added that last thought so that we are clear on that!)

How about discussing the probability that some guesses including estimates are more likely true than other guesses?

I guess that the guess that all guesses are equally probable is probably untrue.

If some guesses are more probably true than others, then whether or not a statement is a guess has zero relevance to what is true. Suppose all statements are a guess. Then the more useful discussion would be that which seeks to discover those guesses most probably true.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Nope! I do not classify "faith" as a guess.

"Belief" is a guess.

"Faith" is the insistance that your guesses are more than guesses simply because you call them beliefs.

Ah but Frank, by your definition you are diminishing the meanings of those words. To witness faith is to witness something much more powerful than a guess. For me faith is, in part, about trust and about the heart. I see people who have true faith and there is a tranquility within that would otherwise not exist. It is difficult to articulate. But I just don't see the definition of faith as being something whittled down to "insistance". Do you not agree that faith is more than that?

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caprice wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Nope! I do not classify "faith" as a guess.

"Belief" is a guess.

"Faith" is the insistance that your guesses are more than guesses simply because you call them beliefs.

Ah but Frank, by your definition you are diminishing the meanings of those words.

I don't think so. Not at all. But we can certainly discuss that.

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To witness faith is to witness something much more powerful than a guess.

Not sure what you mean by "witness faith" -- but if you mean to insist that a particular belief or set of beliefs is TRUTH -- then it is nothing more than bull-headedness.

Bull-headedness is not especially powerful -- just annoying.

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For me faith is, in part, about trust and about the heart.

Yes, I understand that.

But I am trying to show you that you may be rationalizing. -- trying to put the very best face on a truly petty function.

Let's see if I can explain my reasoning: A person can say "There definitely is a GOD -- and the Bible describes that GOD."

That is a belief. It is, by any reasonable standard of measure, a guess about the unknown.

(Now if you are going to assert a private revelation -- we will have to make a long, arduous departure to first investigate this "revelation". I hope that is not the case, because every previous ":private revelation" I've ever encountered has easily been seen to be blather. So I am going to assume you are simply accepting the Bible for whatever you accept it to be; and that you are simply accepting the notion that there is a God.)

So...

...the person has this guess (which he/she calls a belief) that there exists an entity GOD -- and has a further guess (also called a belief) that the ancient Hebrews were in touch with this GOD -- and they accurately described what the GOD is like -- and what pleases and offends the GOD.

Then the person talks about "faith."

By "faith" they inist that their guesses about the exitence of a GOD -- and knowledge about that GOD -- ARE TRUTH.

So..."beliefs" are guesses about the unknown -- and "faith" is the insistance that the guesses are something more than guesses.

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I see people who have true faith and there is a tranquility within that would otherwise not exist.

Yes, I can see that you do. And I respect your right to do so.

I see faith as a crutch for people who are terrified of the unknown.

It is all a matter of perspective.

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It is difficult to articulate.

I suspect that is because your unconscious sees the rationalizations for what they are. (Not being a wise-ass here -- and not being intentionally unkind -- just giving my opinion!)

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But I just don't see the definition of faith as being something whittled down to "insistance". Do you not agree that faith is more than that?

I understand why you don't want to conceive of faith the way I see it.

No, I do not agree that faith is any more than bull-headedness -- no matter than those of you who want your guesses about reality to be accepted as truth -- insist that it is.

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Quick response to Frank...haven't read your whole post yet, but I gotta get showered and get going! So I don't have much time here. (I'm forfeiting the time to read the rest of your message to reply to one part of it.)

To witness faith...I mean to see it in someone else...to either see or read of or hear somene who has utter and complete faith...to see how they take comfort in it, draw strength from it, feel at peace with it...that is what I mean by witnessing faith.

More to follow, as always. :-)

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Was man created in god's image, or was god created in man's?

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