23
   

Fed judge rules health insurance reform unconstitutional

 
 
IRFRANK
 
  4  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 09:35 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Legislation from the bench normally refers to judges getting on their high horse and trying to force social change in violation of the constitution, in this case and hopefully many more to follow we have judges voiding the legislative and executive branches attempy at conspiring to violate the constitution by way of grabbing power that they are not entitled to have. Do you see the difference?


Yes, I see the difference. In one case the actions supports your political view and in the other it doesn't.

I find it interesting that this happened in a state where the State Troopers are allowed to confiscate personal property, radar detectors, from citizens. All in the name of freedom and liberty.

The hypocrisy of the right never ends.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 09:54 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

Do you think that the appeals court will be bypassed altogether? Judge Hudson's decision says nothing on that point.

There would be no reason for Judge Hudson to comment on the possibility of a direct appeal. That's not his call to make. And the chance of this case bypassing the appellate court and going directly to the supreme court is absolutely nil.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 09:56 am
Uh oh.

Quote:
TPMDC
Amateur Hour: VA Judge Makes Elementary Error In Health Care Ruling

Brian Beutler | December 14, 2010, 10:25AM

The Virginia federal district court judge who ruled yesterday that the individual mandate in the health care bill is unconstitutional is catching a lot of flack -- and not just for having a financial interest in an anti-health care reform consulting firm.

Legal experts are attacking Judge Henry Hudson's decision on the merits, citing an elementary logical flaw at the heart of his opinion. And that has conservative scholars -- even ones sympathetic to the idea that the mandate is unconstitutional -- prepared to see Hudson's decision thrown out.

"I've had a chance to read Judge Hudson's opinion, and it seems to me it has a fairly obvious and quite significant error," writes Orin Kerr, a professor of law at George Washington University, on the generally conservative law blog The Volokh Conspiracy.

Kerr and others note that Hudson's argument against Congress' power to require people to purchase health insurance rests on a tautology.

The key portion of the ruling reads:

Quote:

If a person's decision not to purchase health insurance at a particular point in time does not constitute the type of economic activity subject to regulation under the Commerce Clause, then logically an attempt to enforce such provision under the Necessary and Proper Clause is equally offensive to the Constitution.


Kerr notes that this is all wrong. The Necessary and Proper Clause allows Congress to take steps beyond those listed in the Constitution to achieve its Constitutional ends, including the regulation of interstate commerce. Hudson's argument wipes a major key part of the Constitution out of existence. Kerr says Hudson "rendered [it] a nullity."

Kerr's co-blogger, Case Western Law Professor agreed, though he cautioned that Hudson's error doesn't necessarily imply that the mandate is constitutional.

In an interview with TPM this morning, Timothy Jost of Washington and Lee University called the logic on this point "completely redundant."

"In Hudson's opinion he basically conflates the Commerce power and the Necessary and Proper power and says that each provision in a statute has to be looked at independently from every other provision, and each provision has to be independently authorized under the Commerce Clause," Jost said. "And if it isn't, the Necessary and Proper Clause doesn't grant any more authority."

As a result of this error, Hudson never engages the key question in the case: whether the individual mandate is a reasonable way for Congress to implement regulations within its purview.

"Given that existing Supreme Court case law gives the federal government a fairly straightforward argument in support of the mandate under the Necessary and Proper clause, Judge Hudson's error leads him to assume away as a matter of 'logic' what is the major question in the case," Kerr writes. "That is unfortunate, I think."


http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/12/amateur-hour-va-judge-makes-elementary-error-in-health-care-ruling.php?ref=fpa

Cycloptichorn
H2O MAN
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 10:04 am
@Cycloptichorn,



Yep, the whining from left wing liberal progressive democrats is loud, but they can't change
the fact that the mandate in Obamacare is unconstitutional no matter how loud they whine.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 10:07 am
@dlowan,
dlowan wrote:
Thoughts on how the ruling will fall???

I haven't been following this very closely. It's my understanding that other challenges, brought in other courts around the country, have either been decided in favor of the legislation or have been thrown out entirely. On this case, then, Judge Hudson, who was appointed to the bench by GW Bush, stands alone.

The judge, however, is no partisan hack, and his opinion was well-considered and thorough. I just think he made an indefensible distinction between commercial activity (which can be regulated under the constitution's Commerce Clause) and commercial inactivity (which he thinks can't). The supreme court, however, has long held that congress has the power to regulate commercial inactivity as well as commercial activity, so long as that inactivity itself has an effect on interstate commerce. That's the holding in Wickard v. Filburn, and it was recently reiterated in Gonzalez v. Raich (see this discussion for more detail). Hudson's opinion tried to distinguish those precedents, but I don't it did so in a convincing manner. And for conservatives who are hoping that the supreme court will side with Hudson's decision have to keep in mind that both Scalia and Kennedy voted with the majority in Gonzalez.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 10:24 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Kerr and others note that Hudson's argument against Congress' power to require people to purchase health insurance rests on a tautology.

The key portion of the ruling reads:

Quote:

If a person's decision not to purchase health insurance at a particular point in time does not constitute the type of economic activity subject to regulation under the Commerce Clause, then logically an attempt to enforce such provision under the Necessary and Proper Clause is equally offensive to the Constitution.


Kerr notes that this is all wrong. The Necessary and Proper Clause allows Congress to take steps beyond those listed in the Constitution to achieve its Constitutional ends, including the regulation of interstate commerce. Hudson's argument wipes a major key part of the Constitution out of existence. Kerr says Hudson "rendered [it] a nullity."

First of all, that's not a tautology.

Second, I think Kerr's criticism is a form of question-begging, and therefore a logical fallacy itself.

Kerr argues that the Necessary and Proper Clause allows congress to put into effect regulations to achieve constitutional ends, including the regulation of interstate commerce. That assumes, however, that the activity here (the mandated purchase of health insurance) is interstate commerce. But that's assuming that the mandate is interstate commerce, which is something that Judge Hudson specifically said it wasn't. That's begging the question.

Hudson's argument here is that, if something isn't interstate commerce, then congress can't justify a regulation on the grounds that it's necessary and proper to further the goal of regulating interstate commerce. And I think he's right. If congress can't regulate something under the Commerce Clause, it can't defend a regulation on the grounds that it's necessary and proper to implement congress's power to regulate interstate commerce.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 11:49 am
@IRFRANK,
IRFRANK wrote:
Yes, I see the difference. In one case the actions supports your political view and in the other it doesn't.

Well duh.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 11:54 am
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
That assumes, however, that the activity here (the mandated purchase of health insurance) is interstate commerce. But that's assuming that the mandate is interstate commerce, which is something that Judge Hudson specifically said it wasn't. That's begging the question.


Well, I think you could make an argument that Hudson is wrong with his assessment that the Mandate - and the Health insurance that it represents - isn't interstate commerce.

The fact that most people's insurance has at least SOME coverage for emergency services and other services performed out of network - which is to say, in other states - would seem to give the lie to his opinion.

Cycloptichorn
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 11:59 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Well, I think you could make an argument that Hudson is wrong with his assessment that the Mandate - and the Health insurance that it represents - isn't interstate commerce.

I did make that argument. But that doesn't mean that Hudson made the error that Kerr and others accuse him of making. On that particular point, I think Hudson was right and Kerr was making his own logical error.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 12:02 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Well, I think you could make an argument that Hudson is wrong with his assessment that the Mandate - and the Health insurance that it represents - isn't interstate commerce.

I did make that argument. But that doesn't mean that Hudson made the error that Kerr and others accuse him of making. On that particular point, I think Hudson was right and Kerr was making his own logical error.


I guess if you assume that his faulty original argument was in fact correct, the reasoning he provided for it is sound.

Cycloptichorn
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 12:11 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Are you suggesting that, because the judge's conclusion was wrong, that all of his reasoning must have been wrong as well?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 12:18 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

Are you suggesting that, because the judge's conclusion was wrong, that all of his reasoning must have been wrong as well?


His logic can be sound, but still not be an accurate description of the real-world situation.

I can make a great argument for lots of things - doesn't mean that they are true. At some point you have to have verifiable proof that the foundational principles of your argument are solid, if you wish for the rest of the structure to stand firm.

Cycloptichorn
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 12:27 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
You're obviously addressing someone else's argument, so I'll just stand aside at this point.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 12:34 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

You're obviously addressing someone else's argument, so I'll just stand aside at this point.


Yeah, I'm not specifically criticizing your argument or his logical reasoning - only his conclusion that HI isn't an inter-state commercial activity.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 01:30 pm



Don't Tweak ObamaCare; Repeal It
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 02:52 pm

I avidly hope to see the anti-logical
doctrine of Wickard v. Filburn 317 U.S. 111 (1942)
be repudiated by the USSC.

This is a good opportunity.





David
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 03:37 pm
Interesting reading.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 06:47 pm
Interesting. I am just following along for now.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 09:21 pm
@IRFRANK,
Quote:
Yes, I see the difference. In one case the actions supports your political view and in the other it doesn't.

in one case the judges act in a manor that I find consistant with the constitution and the spirit of the three banch framework of the federal government, and in the other judges are going outside of their lane.
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 08:15 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Yes, I see the difference. In one case the actions supports your political view and in the other it doesn't.


Quote:
in one case the judges act in a manor that I find consistant with the constitution and the spirit of the three banch framework of the federal government, and in the other judges are going outside of their lane.


Just as IRFRANK said.

Joe Chicago makes a good argument, cyclop, I think you need to reread it. He said "indefensible distinction."
 

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