Chiraq bans Muslim head scarves in State Schools

So, in order to purportedly "save the [secular] legacy of 1789", France is now veering to something - school uniform-like dress codes - that had been abolished since 1789?

Sounds ironic.

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I don't know about the real date - just thaught that in medieval times kind of school uniforms were quite common (and are relatively unknown in European public schools [outsite the UK]).

Yes, kind of irony - making a revolution against monarchy to get an emperor seems to me the same :wink:

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No beard--if it is judged to be a religious connoted beard? I'd like to know how in hell someone plans to make this distinction... They are skimming down a slippery slope. Will it be only Muslims and Hasidic Jews who will be force-shaven by the French govt?

From protecting freedom from religion to marshall law.

France is up **** creek.

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France has made a mess of this, IMHO. I saw in yesterday's Times that bandanas may now be banned, if they have religious connotations. Huh?
And they haven't even considered the headwear that Sikh men are required to wear.

I wasn't sure how I felt about this policy when I first heard about it, but I now know it's wrong. Leave well enough alone. Jeez.

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Slow down, goys and birls--school children with beards? School uniforms in 1789? We're the ones going off the deep end here. I rather doubt that there are any school children in France who will be forced to shave their religiously motivated beards. As for the "legacy of 1789" as mentioned by Nimh, i would point out that there were no public schools before the establishment of the Directory, so a contention that they would be returning to an artifact of an ancient, repressive order is a non-starter.

Frankly, i'm amazed that people get so exercised about this. How is it any of our business? Granted, we all have the right to comment on it, but please, let's keep a little perspective.

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Setanta wrote:

Slow down, goys and birls--school children with beards? School uniforms in 1789? We're the ones going off the deep end here. I rather doubt that there are any school children in France who will be forced to shave their religiously motivated beards. As for the "legacy of 1789" as mentioned by Nimh, i would point out that there were no public schools before the establishment of the Directory, so a contention that they would be returning to an artifact of an ancient, repressive order is a non-starter.

Frankly, I'm amazed that people get so exercised about this. How is it any of our business? Granted, we all have the right to comment on it, but please, let's keep a little perspective.

Set, have you been reading the headlines coming out of France? I guess it wouldn't affect third graders, but some of these young men are indoctrinated to believe their religious loyalty and character are tied to their beards--and teachers would be affected (if they still allow Muslim and Hasidic Jew teachers.)

Sort of odd for you to seemingly attempt to stop the conversation. It is news. But, if you convince non-Americans here and in France not to discuss American domestic issues, I guess I'll limit my comments, too.

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I think it's of interest in that we deal with the same issues in the US. The fact that the gov't is trying to regulate this in France provides a perspective on what we're doing in this country. And frankly, I'm pleasantly surprised that the current regime is taking a hands-off approach!

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I'm not trying to stop the discussion, Sofia, that contention is over the top, as well. One aspect of French life in which power is concentrated just as much as is the case with the "secular tradition" is the labor unions. I seriously doubt that any French government would get away with, or even attempt, to regulate so minutely the appearance of teachers, who are union members. When the French rioted in the streets in 1968, the protesters were union laborers, college instructors and students. It's a coalition which will form at the drop of a hat in Paris, if the people feel they've been pushed too far.

I was just observing that i think the discussion was getting a little ridiculous.

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I agree with the French, in principle. They are taking secularism to its logical conclusion - removing as much religious influence in schools as possible. I have doubts about how it can be practically implemented though.

It is the accusation that these laws are racist that irks me the most. I've seen Muslims voice this opinion before - as if the law was directed specifically at them. However, the laws apply equally to everybody so they are not racist.

Secondly, the main Muslim argument seems to be based on the universal principle that governments dictating dress codes is wrong. It is worth noting, however, that although Muslims around the world were quick to demonstrate against the French laws, millions of Middle Eastern Muslims live under regimes that have forced dress codes as well. In the case of Iran and Saudi Arabia, women are forced to wear traditional dress. While the French laws may be a violation of freedom, the Middle Eastern laws are blatent sexism and oppression. Recently, several female students burned to death because they were not allowed to leave a buring building without traditional dress.

It is myopic for Muslims around the world to rally against the French laws - ostensibly because government dictated dress codes are wrong - while at the same time turning a blind eye to oppression in thier own community. It hurts thier cause.

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IZL said--It is the accusation that these laws are racist that irks me the most. I've seen Muslims voice this opinion before - as if the law was directed specifically at them. However, the laws apply equally to everybody so they are not racist.
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But IZL-- The French govt has stated they will add the wearing of beards and bandanas to the edict on scarves. What I wonder, is who will the beard police be? Who makes these decisions? And, if only religious connoted beards and bandanas are banned--that is certainly discrimination against religious people. Why can atheists wear beards?

I think Set is right, in that this cannot stand as is. They could never justify the discrimination.

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Setanta wrote:

Frankly, i'm amazed that people get so exercised about this. How is it any of our business? Granted, we all have the right to comment on it, but please, let's keep a little perspective.

It may not be your business, over there, for those of you who dont care much for what happens beyond the Atlantic - but it sure as hell is mine. The French discussion has been going on for a decade, and as Walters posts and mine here have shown, it has long bled through to our countries, too. The headscarf hysteria is in the headlines of my country's newspapers everyday, the Fortuynists and right-wing liberals are pushing for likeminded measures here, and considering my line of work, the whole thing is actually very close to home.

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Sofia wrote:

But IZL-- The French govt has stated they will add the wearing of beards and bandanas to the edict on scarves. What I wonder, is who will the beard police be? Who makes these decisions? And, if only religious connoted beards and bandanas are banned--that is certainly discrimination against religious people. Why can atheists wear beards?

I think Set is right, in that this cannot stand as is. They could never justify the discrimination.

Some answers to your above questions, Sofia, can be got by reading this AP article, published yesterday:

Quote:

PARIS (AP) -- As France debates a plan to ban Islamic head scarves in public schools, the education minister said Tuesday that even some bandannas and beards should be barred from the classroom.

During a debate in parliament Tuesday, officials raised the question of Muslim girls who wear bandannas to cover their hair -- an alternative to the traditional head scarf that some girls feel is easier to blend in to the crowd. Most Islamic headscarves are silky and larger than cotton print bandannas.

Education Minister Luc Ferry said that bandannas, in some cases, will fall under the ban, which is part of France's push to maintain the tradition of secularism in the classroom.

The bandanna "will be banned, if young girls present it as a religious sign," said Ferry, who was presenting the proposal to lawmakers.

Responding to a question, Ferry also said that beards would be banned, if they are worn for religious reasons, according to a report on France Info radio.

The planned law would ban "conspicuous" religious symbols from schools, from head scarves to Jewish yarmulkes or skull caps to large Christian crosses. One aspect of debate has focused on word choice -- whether the phrasing should be changed to "visible" or "ostentatious."

Ferry said he believed a ban on "visible" religious symbols would go to far. As the proposal stands, discreet religious symbols -- for example, a small star of David worn around the neck -- would be permitted.

The discussion Tuesday at the National Assembly was a preview to issues that will be raised next month, when parliament begins official debate on whether the bill should become law.

The French seperate state and religion - and certainly wont make an edict but a law.
And don't forget: it's all about wearing in schools (as far as I know, pupils MUST wear uniforms in the USA :wink: ).

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I'm sure it is Nimh, and i don't for a moment discredit your legitimate concerns. Certainly i was addressing other Americans with that comment. However, i would observe that neither Germany nor the Netherlands need a hoorah in France to provide an excuse for right wing nut cases--the treatment of Mollucans in Holland, and Turks in Germany, demonstrate quite well that home-grown prejudice against immigrants prospers in both nations. In fact, in all honesty, although i believe Chirac was sincerely motivated by the secular tradition to deal with a growing problem, i also do not doubt for a moment that he had an eye to the appeal such a measure would have with right wing nationalists in France. In many cases, i would consider the appeal such as that made to France's secular tradition to be a smoke screen. I don't in this case, however, as it is an extremely important part of their history from the establishment of the third republic up to the present day.

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation in France. Ignored, the problem threatens to explode with others demanding their own religiously-motivated privileges as well as the racist resentment of Muslim immigrants. Dealt with, as has been done, it raises a furor as well, because of the charges of racism--it degenerates into a shouting match between the immigrants and their supporters, and the traditionalists (many of whom are on the left) in an uneasy alliance with right wing types who are probably overjoyed at the fracas.

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Yeh, Walter, the same story was already posted here in this thread twice: "Beards may be outlawed with ban on veils" (Adrian) and "Next Target in the French Headgear Debate: The Bandanna" (me).

Setanta wrote:

Slow down, goys and birls--school children with beards? School uniforms in 1789? We're the ones going off the deep end here.

Ehhh - the 1789 point was meant as an off-hand remark, thaz why the quotation marks and stuff. The underlying argument was about how the new measure has been nauseatingly often defended as needed to defend the "secular foundations of the modern French state" - i.e., the legacy of 1789. I just found it funny that the ultimate consequence of the law's reasoning (school uniforms - not that I think it'll actually get that far) - would amount to something modern France has actually always stayed far from, as Walter pointed out - that it was actually typical for modern France (in contrast with Britain, say) to not have something like that.

As for the beards, someone else already pointed out, it is an issue. Note also that if the law pertains to all public education, it's not just the 18-year olds in high school, but all the university students, too. Most European universities are public schools, not private businesses, after all. So nothing all too irrelevant or "ridiculous" there.

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Sofia wrote:

IZL said--It is the accusation that these laws are racist that irks me the most. I've seen Muslims voice this opinion before - as if the law was directed specifically at them. However, the laws apply equally to everybody so they are not racist.
---------------
But IZL-- The French govt has stated they will add the wearing of beards and bandanas to the edict on scarves. What I wonder, is who will the beard police be? Who makes these decisions? And, if only religious connoted beards and bandanas are banned--that is certainly discrimination against religious people. Why can atheists wear beards?

I think Set is right, in that this cannot stand as is. They could never justify the discrimination.

Where is the part where you address my point that the law is not racist because it applies equally to everybody?

All symbols of religion are banned. Period. This does not discriminate, in principle.

Incidentally, I agree with your questioning of how exactly policies about beards and such will be implemented/regulated. Which is precisly why I wrote "I agree with the French in principle...but I have doubts about how it can be practically implemented."

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I see your point about 1789. I don't think it's germaine in the discussion, though, because the secular tradition referred to dates from 1871, after the Directory, after the Consulate, after the first Empire, after the Restoration, after the "Constitutional Monarchy," after the second Republic (there actually was never a "first" republic, although the Committee for Public Safety liked to characterize their regime as such), and after the second Empire. As i mentioned very early in this thread, there is a very instructive description of the meaning of secularism in public education in Maurice Pagnol's La Gloire de mon pere. The men (as almost all of them were) in public education in the late 19th century and thereafter, were virtually "crusaders" against any taint of religion in public education--Pagnol's father was one of these men. It really is a sacred cow among the French.

In fact, i thought i had read that this would not apply to universities, but i could well be wrong on that.

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Setanta wrote:

However, i would observe that neither Germany nor the Netherlands need a hoorah in France to provide an excuse for right wing nut cases--the treatment of Mollucans in Holland, and Turks in Germany, demonstrate quite well that home-grown prejudice against immigrants prospers in both nations.

Yeh, exactly! It is not France I'm railing against here, it's this kind of measures, that are borne at least partly out of Islamophobia (or the wish to play into it).

When this thread started out I was at times still poo-pooing it as something "typically French", but it's become clear it isn't. From Walter's posts and from the way I see our right-wing populists pick up on it, too. It's the same fight, and if France sets this precedent (as it surely will, whether we argue about it here or not), that bodes ill for the Netherlands, Germany, too.

Setanta wrote:

Ignored, the problem threatens to explode with others demanding their own religiously-motivated privileges

When did wearing a headscarf become a "privilege"? I mean, honestly, if this had been about fundamentalist imams flown in from Morocco to preach in European mosques without any knowledge of the local language or culture - for example - I would show a lot more understanding. Or if it were about midwives making exceptions for Somalian women to allow for them being sown back up if they say they want to. But wearing a bloody headscarf! How low can we go in our clampdown on Muslims for simply choosing to look differently than we do!

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As to dealing with the beards, maybe they could take a page from Petr Alexeevitch, who decreed that all the Boyars must shave their beards. After a few years of his soldiers running around, entertaining themselves by hacking beards off old Russian traditionalists, Petr ordained a measure whereby they could pay a "beard tax," and would be give a medallion to wear around their neck to show they had paid the tax, and were therefore immune to the enforced "de-bearding" by soldiers.

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Setanta wrote:

I see your point about 1789. I don't think it's germaine in the discussion, though, because the secular tradition referred to dates from 1871, after the Directory, after the Consulate, [..].

<nods> Thanks. I am waaay behind you in knowledge of pre-20th century history, and tend to use those dates rather "symbolically". Thanks for the corrections.

Setanta wrote:

In fact, i thought i had read that this would not apply to universities, but i could well be wrong on that.

Oh, that at least would be good. Will have to look it up.

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nimh wrote:

When did wearing a headscarf become a "privilege"? I mean, honestly, if this had been about fundamentalist imams flown in from Morocco to preach in European mosques without any knowledge of the local language or culture - for example - I would show a lot more understanding. Or if it were about midwives making exceptions for Somalian women to allow for them being sown back up if they say they want to. But wearing a bloody headscarf! How low can we go in our clampdown on Muslims for simply choosing to look differently than we do!

Again - the law is not directed at Muslims. It may have been motivated, at least in part, by Islamophobia. However, the principle behind the law is not discriminatory, racist, or targeted specifically at Muslims. It seems to me that the French are merely following secularism to its logical conclusion. How exactly they are going to put that principle into pratice is the tricky part.

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Chiraq bans Muslim head scarves in State Schools

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