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WikiLeaks about to hit the fan

 
 
failures art
 
  0  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 07:14 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Quote:
How you feel about these allegations is unknown to me.


In which case, it is a straw man for you to mention such a conspiracy in a response to my post. You should address such remarks to those to whom it applies, and not to me. Offer your commentary where is applies, not to me.

I didn't respond to you. I introduced my thoughts here in response to no one. You then responded to me. I didn't drag you into anything.

Setanta wrote:

Given that we are not privy to any of the evidence beyond what is alleged in the press, we would do well not to assume anything.

Which is what I already said here.
failures art wrote:
We aren't privy to the circumstances, so we shouldn't assume anything about the allegations legitimacy.


Do you still require clarification? I think it's pretty simple.

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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 07:14 pm
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

You just have more trust in your government than I do, Finn. Good for you!


I don't know if that's the best way to describe our difference.

I do have a lot of faith in the basic decency of individuals, and governments (as well as corporations for that matter) are nothing more than a collection of individuals.

I have less faith in the competence of my government. Whether or not the desire is there, I don't think it is capable of the diabolical conspiracies of which it is accused.

I completely disagree with your assertion that every citizen has a right to disclose secrets the government fails to keep secure.

You seem to think the government and the people are two opposing sides in a game or contest.

While I'm not naive enough to assume that all governmental secrets are kept to protect the interests and security of the citizenry, I do assume that many are. I suppose I have the right to disclose a secret if it negatively impacts my interests and security alone, but I don't have a right to do so if the impact is shared by my fellow citizens.

Of course the original source of classified information must be held accountable whenever a secret is divulged, and I will take it a step further and argue that if the original source was able to disclose the documents because of institutional negligence, then his or her superiors or those in charge of security should be held accountable as well.

Because you are not the original source, you should not be excused for whatever consequences flow from the disclosure of the secrets. An example that I hope I've stripped free of ambiguity might be a reporter publishing troop movements during a war. If the enemy uses that information to mount an ambush that would not otherwise have been possible and soldiers are killed, the reporter bears responsibility for those deaths. He should have known releasing the information was perilous and that he didn't have to, to avoid a significantly greater catastrophe.

A free society may decide that it is better, in the long haul, to run the risk that a journalist's publishing secrets will occasionally have dire consequences than it is to hold the reporter personally responsible for those consequences. The motivation for such a decision being that any fear of retribution might result in a total refusal of reporters to publish secrets...even those the disclosure of which serve the country.

But even though we are practically there already, it would disappoint me tremendously to learn that there aren't journalists who are willing to suffer consequences for doing serving their profession and their country. No other group of professionals, save perhaps politicians and lawyers are provided this excessive protection, and none of them consistently fail to meet their duty for fear of possible consequences.

Very few people in general, and almost none who favor this extent of journalistic protection, would afford the same to a policeman, and yet the same basic argument can be made.

We need police who will use their guns and sometimes kill people. If we don't provide them with near blanket immunity from prosecution for using their weapons in the course of their duty, they may all refuse to ever use them --- even when we need them to.

The truth is neither good nor bad, and it is certainly not of such value that it outweighs all other considerations.

Are we saying that journalists are incapable of making difficult decisions? That if left to their own devices they will always let fear of consequences overrule their professional integrity?

But even if we accept journalistic immunity, a strong case can be made that Julian Assange is not a journalist. He is a conduit, a middleman, and if he refuses to screen the information he passes along for data that may result in essentially innocent individuals being harmed, he certainly doesn't deserve the protection afforded journalists, who at least claim they will take such a step.


failures art
 
  0  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 07:19 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Why should you make any assumptions? Once again, unless you have evidence which has not been aired here, there is no good reason to make any assumptions. If you have such evidence, do us a favor and provide it.

From Hingehead's post regarding Sweden's rape conviction rate:
Hingehead wrote:
As I posted forever ago on this thread - Sweden has an appalling reporting AND conviction rate for sexual abuse crimes against women - to the point where it was censured by Amnesty International.

I believe this supports my assumption that bringing forth allegations is inherently intimidating. Do you see no relationship between a state's reporting, conviction, and the degree of confidence a woman might have to bring forth an allegation to begin with?

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failures art
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 07:29 pm
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:

Quote:
I'll reserve my judgment on the case once it has actually been made.


That's wise but I think you'd agree that A2K would have a lot less posts if none of us speculated about possible legal actions until after the jury arrived at a verdict.

Surely you must concede that people have a reason to think something smells without conceding that it actually does?

Certainly. I don't take issue with that. I accept that this could be exactly what it smells like. I'm trying to show restraint though. I think it's very easy to perpetuate paranoia about everything being a conspiracy in a situation like this.

Similarly, you must concede that any allegation legitimate or fraudulent brought up against Assange in the current climate will be smell the same without conceding that you know which are which.

I see the issue as irrelevant to WL. Even if it turned out he was guilty of much worse allegations, he work as it pertains to WL stands alone. Certainly Einstein's contribution to physics stands separate from this extramarital affairs and even arrests for domestic violence.

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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 07:31 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn, so how do you explain the double standard then in the case of Valerie Palme? Robert Novak, who obtained information about Palme being a CIA
agent, wrote about it in his column at the Washington Post. He never was
charged with anything, yet with this publication, it ruined Palme's life ,her
husband's career and almost ended their marriage.
Surely, the state prosecuted the government source that leaked the info,
but not the messenger, Robert Novak. He even was an american citizen,
as is Palme. Nonetheless, freedom of press was honored and granted!

So we don't weigh much into this because she's an individual? No
moral outcries here?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 07:35 pm
@CalamityJane,
Plame?
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 07:39 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
I believe this supports my assumption that bringing forth allegations is inherently intimidating. Do you see no relationship between a state's reporting, conviction, and the degree of confidence a woman might have to bring forth an allegation to begin with?


You are arguing against a point I never made. I was providing background information for you because you said you were assuming similarities in the way sex abuse is dealt with between Sweden and the USA.

If you read the rest of my post you would know that I was supporting the rule of law and care of the victims - whoever they might be. I was also hoping to draw your attention the anomalous resources this particular case is drawing given Sweden's reputation for not processing these cases.

PS it wasn't the state's reporting that was low, it was the victims. You may think supports your argument, but it's a double edged sword. If it's so rarely reported why have these two reported it? I make no judgement call at all on this - I think we all agree we know too little. We'll just have to wait for the documents to come out on wikileaks.

hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 07:41 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
Similarly, you must concede that any allegation legitimate or fraudulent brought up against Assange in the current climate will be smell the same without conceding that you know which are which.

I see the issue as irrelevant to WL. Even if it turned out he was guilty of much worse allegations, he work as it pertains to WL stands alone. Certainly Einstein's contribution to physics stands separate from this extramarital affairs and even arrests for domestic violence.


Absolutely conceded and agreed.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 07:43 pm
@hingehead,
hinge, Good point; I doubt very much all rapes are reported to the police. I also believe it's a very small percentage that is reported.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 07:47 pm
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

Finn, so how do you explain the double standard then in the case of Valerie Palme? Robert Novak, who obtained information about Palme being a CIA
agent, wrote about it in his column at the Washington Post. He never was
charged with anything, yet with this publication, it ruined Palme's life ,her
husband's career and almost ended their marriage.
Surely, the state prosecuted the government source that leaked the info,
but not the messenger, Robert Novak. He even was an american citizen,
as is Palme. Nonetheless, freedom of press was honored and granted!

So we don't weigh much into this because she's an individual? No
moral outcries here?


I'm not sure where you have found a double standard.

I've not argued that Novak should have been immune to prosecution.

Actually, the state did not prosecute the government source that leaked the info. Scooter Libbey was not the source and he was prosecuted for lying to federal investigators, not for disclosing Plame's job with the CIA. Richard Armitage was the source and he was never prosecuted.

Whether or not the disclosure ruined Plame's life, her husband's career, and almost ended their marriage, none of this would be reason for the government to charge Armitage, or Novak with a crime.

They both filed a civil action against Libbey, Karl Rove, Dick Cheney and Richard Armitage but it was dismissed, and they lost the subsequent appeal.

I'm assuming you see a double standard when it comes to Novak and Assange.

Aside from the fact that two entirely different Justice Departments were involved, there is no double standard argument to be made. First, Assange hasn't been charged with anything yet and secondly, if he is, the US government will argue that he is not a journalist as was Novak and is not entitled to similar protection.
CalamityJane
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 08:21 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Sorry, I always misspelled Valerie's name as Palme - Plame of course.
--

Assange is journalist and publisher, went to the university of Melbourne and
co-wrote serveral books. Why do you assume he's no journalist and therefore
not protected under "freedom of press"?

I know that you did not argue that Novak shouldn't have been immune to
prosecute, but it's a fact that he was held immune - Assange is not.

Right, Assange is not charged (yet) as the United States is still frantically
looking into a law that could indite him. Why would they make all the hoopla
if it's for nothing....


msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 09:13 pm
@CalamityJane,
As most of you would be aware, the Australian attorney-general requested that the Australian federal police investigate Julian Assange, to ascertain whether he'd broken any Australian laws.

The results of that investigation have just been released:


Quote:
WikiLeaks broke no Australian laws
Updated 8 minutes ago

The Australian Federal Police (AFP) says it has not found any breaches of Australian law by Julian Assange's WikiLeaks organisation.

"The AFP has completed its evaluation of the material available and has not established the existence of any criminal offences where Australia would have jurisdiction," the force said in a statement released today.

"Where additional cables are published and criminal offences are suspected, these matters should be referred to the AFP for evaluation."

Attorney-General Robert McClelland says it was "prudent" for the Government to have referred the matter to the AFP.

Mr Assange, who is wanted for questioning on sexual assault charges in Sweden, was freed on bail by the High Court in London overnight. ...<cont>


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/12/17/3096032.htm
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 09:14 pm
@hingehead,
Hinge, You may have misread me. I was agreeing with you. Also, sorry if I was confusing about "state's reporting." I should have said reporting in the state.

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0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 09:25 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

There have been numerous expressions of outrage over the fact that one army private was, so easily, able to make off with so much classified information.

It doesn't exonerate Pvt Manning or Julian Assange, but the US military carries a tremendous degree of responsibility for this mess, and heads should role. Right now, of course, Assange is attracting all of the news coverage, but it will find its way back to the Pentagon.

I actually read up on this some more to try and understand why end users had such a loose security practice. It seems that users in the theater have different permissions on things like multimedia when compared to individuals in a SCIF. For instance one group may have the need to print but no printers so they will have to transport media to another group or to an ally.

That solves a small part off the puzzle for me. What remains is why he had read permissions in some specific directories. The Pentagon will agree this in two parts: Technology (dumb and temporary) and new policy implementation (less dumb). I've been reading up on my intranet blogs, and there is a lot of divide on this topic. A lot of people are blaming IT, but IT is saying that ultimately they can't just do what they want. They implement the protocols given to them by who they report to. I'm sure we can all relate to that: Telling a boss about an idea and having it rejected for any number of reasons.

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hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 09:44 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
Attorney-General Robert McClelland says it was "prudent" for the Government to have referred the matter to the AFP.


Heh. Yeah that might of been prudent. Talking about rescinding his passport before you've even referred the matter to the AFP is somewhat less so.

Really Oz law is an irrelevance - it's US diplomatic cables that were leaked (but not wikileaks - wikileaks published them the man who leaked them is in custody) and it didn't happen here. All that matters from our perspective is that an Australian citizen is involved and that his rights as such should be preserved. McLelland his hiding his fat embarrassed head behind a very small figleaf of due process.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 09:46 pm
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

Sorry, I always misspelled Valerie's name as Palme - Plame of course.
--

Assange is journalist and publisher, went to the university of Melbourne and
co-wrote serveral books. Why do you assume he's no journalist and therefore
not protected under "freedom of press"?

I know that you did not argue that Novak shouldn't have been immune to
prosecute, but it's a fact that he was held immune - Assange is not.

Right, Assange is not charged (yet) as the United States is still frantically
looking into a law that could indite him. Why would they make all the hoopla
if it's for nothing....





I should clarify that I do not believe that the First Amendment provides journalists with unlimited immunity from prosecution under the Espionage Act.

If at any time in the Plame investigation Novak was considered immune by the prosecutor it was because the prosecutor granted him immunity in return for his testimony. I can't find confirmation that he was granted immunity, but if he was it would be proof in itself that the prosecutor, at least, didn't believe Novak was entitled to legal immunity by virtue of his status as a journalist. At no time was Novak ruled to be immune by a court of law.

The Nixon Administration filed charges under the Espionage Act against the NY Times in connection with the "Pentagon Papers" leak. The US Supreme Court dismissed the case on the issue of prior restraint, but did not rule that the NYT was immune from further prosecution under the Act.

In essence the issue of First Amendment protection for journalists as respects the Espionage Act is undecided.

That being the case, the US can file an indictment against Assange, under the Espionage Act, irrespective of whether or not he is considered to have been a journalist when the classified documents were released.

It is not in question that Assange has zacted as a journalist in the past. The question is whether or not he was acting as one when he released the secret cables. Th argument will likely be made that journalists do not merely dump hundreds of thousands of document into the public domain without performing certain actions fundamental to journalism e.g. fact checking, editing, redacting and providing commentary.

I'm not suggesting Assange won't be indicted, only stating that he has yet to be. There is no reason to believe the US government is frantically looking for a law under which to indict Assange. They already have one...The Espionage Act. They may be researching other statutes which may apply as any and all prosecutors prefer to file as many charges as they muster up. There is currently speculation in some quarters that the indictment has already been files and obtained, but the government is simply waiting for the most opportune time to release it.

0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 09:52 pm
@failures art,
Clearly there is no procedure in place to test critical security processes. If SOX procedures, mandated by congress, are important for corporations at least something similiar should be implemented in the military. I doubt this is a one-off technology failure.

This is what I mean about fearing incompetence more than malevolence.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 09:53 pm
@msolga,
This just saves a step between acquittal in Sweden and indictment in the US.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 09:57 pm
@hingehead,
Quote:
All that matters from our perspective is that an Australian citizen is involved and that his rights as such should be preserved. McLelland his hiding his fat embarrassed head behind a very small figleaf of due process.

I guess you could say that in terms of the big picture, hinge.
But it's very important in the local context.
Our prime minister declared Julian Assange's Wikileaks activities "illegal" in support of the US position.
The attorney-general's request for the AFP to investigate Assange came at pretty much the same time that he declared that Assange "was not welcome" to return to Australia. And that his passport could be revoked.
All of which has been used as part of the ongoing smear campaign, both here in Oz & overseas, against the activities of Wikileaks.
I'm delighted that this has been officially cleared up & that this material can no longer be used for this purpose.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 09:59 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Sorry, Finn?
 

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