57
   

WikiLeaks about to hit the fan

 
 
Setanta
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 12:15 pm
It depends on circumstances, to which circumstances we are not privy. Unless you contend that you have evidence that this woman found herself in an intimidating situation. No, i don't automatically assume that such situations are intimidating. Do you consider yourself well enough informed about how rape allegations are treated in Sweden to make that call?
spendius
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 12:21 pm
@Setanta,
I hope those interested have noticed that Setanta fails to provide an example of my "lies". And I hope you notice his assessment of Dylan and Mailer which, I presume, extends to any other writer I have quoted.

Of course my information came from Wikipedia and from the first entry I clicked on. Simply copy my post (No 4,445,795) and paste it into the Google search box and there it is--word for word.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 12:33 pm
@Setanta,
No. I don't consider myself an expert on sex laws or cultural norms in Sweden. Perhaps I'm projecting, but in general I believe that women coming forth to bring any allegation is inherently intimidating.

We aren't privy to the circumstances, so we shouldn't assume anything about the allegations legitimacy.

Also, if the women dropped the allegation prior to the media fuss, why all the assumptions that she was a part of some sort of conspiracy?

What if the allegations are true? Worse, what if there are more women? Certainly we'd not need to debate if they would be intimidated to come forth now.

Bottom line, we should be assuming much about either Assange or these women.

A
R
T
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 12:39 pm
@failures art,
Straw man . . . i've never even remotely suggested that her allegations were a part of a conspiracy. You need to address such remarks to anyone here who you can reasonably charge with making such an assumption. I cannot agree at all that "we should be assuming much about either Assange or these women."
dyslexia
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 12:47 pm
@Setanta,
I cannot agree at all that "we should be assuming much about either Assange or these women." interesting, I read that as a typo intending to mean "we shouldn't be assuming"
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 12:48 pm
I thought about that, but then he is making assumptions about these women, and apparently thinks he's justified.
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 12:50 pm
Should we then be assanging?

errrr, sorry - couldn't help it...... Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 01:57 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Quote:
If they opt for #3, I doubt Assange will go back to Australia where the government has already announced they are investigating whether or not he has violated Australian law.

Could I add, Finn, that the Australian government has rather gone quiet on its initial sabre rattling stance, in support of the US.
The Australian public didn't like it at all.
There's been quite a backlash.
If Julian Assange wanted to return to Australia, eventually, my understanding is that he would be legally entitled to do so. And if the federal police were going to find something to pin on him, I think they would have found something by now.


I've spent some time searching on-line Australian newspapers and news sources:

news.com.au
Sydney Morning Herald
The Age
Canberra Times
West Australian

I've found only a few articles describing several rallys in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Canberra. The rallys were described as involving from "one hundred" to "hundreds of" protestors.

I appreciate that Australia is smaller in population than the US, but devoid of all the competing propoganda associated with politcal rallys, a demonstration that draws a few hundred people is not considered a definitive sign of massive unrest among the US people. Perhaps its different in Australia.

In the US it is typical for the organizers and strong supporters of a rally to greatly exaggerate attendance, and I suspect it is the same in Australia. I don't mean to suggest that you have been dishonest in your reporting of the Australian people's response to the governments statements about Assange, but you clearly hold a position that can be described as Pro-Assange and your sources may be biased.

That the Australian government has "gone quiet" since it's initial comments may have everything or nothing to do with the several relatively small rallys I found reports on.

There is no need for your government to issue public statements concerning Assange and WikiLeaks on a periodic basis. The US government is more impacted than yours and it is not issuing reguar statements.

The proof will be in the pudding.

Iwouldn't assume that because your government has yet to announce charges against Assange that they are not forthcoming. We're talking about a bureaucracy which even in times of national crisis can be slow, and this is hardly a national crisis for your country.

Assuming you are correct that the US is exerting considerable pressure on its allies to deal with Assange, there will not be a need for Australia to take any action unless the Swedish legal matter falls apart or results in an acquittal. Even then, the US might be in a position to issue its own indictment and have no need for Australia to become involved...unless extradition from there is eventually required. Given that there has been any negative reaction to your government's initial statements, there is nothing to be gained by staying out in front of or even beside the US while the Swedish matter unfolds.

This is not to say that I believe that there is an international conspiracy at work to get Assange behind bars, but if there is, I think you need to appreciate that it is more complex and less binary than you might suspect, and it almost certainly does not involve a pack of lapdog states awaiting and complying with every command its US master gives.

JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 02:29 pm
@spendius,
Do you have a link to his speech, spendi?

edit: I found a video clip here
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40696331/ns/us_news-wikileaks_in_security/
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 02:33 pm
@JPB,
No. It was quite brief and most of it was thanking people. What I quoted was more or less the sum of the rest.

Google "Julian Assange speech on release from prison."
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 02:33 pm
@JPB,
Therer's a video on the BBC-website as well ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12005930 ), but I'm not sure, if you watch it outside the UK.
JPB
 
  3  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 02:39 pm
@spendius,
It seems he's going from "Dickensian conditions" to a 10-bedroom estate. Quite a change in scenery! Since he's already commented on his reflections of the prison conditions the world over, I wonder what he'll make of the difference in how different people live outside of prison.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 02:40 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Thanks, Walter. Yes, the link works and the write-up is much more thorough than in the link I posted.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 02:45 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

This is not to say that I believe that there is an international conspiracy at work to get Assange behind bars, but if there is, I think you need to appreciate that it is more complex and less binary than you might suspect, and it almost certainly does not involve a pack of lapdog states awaiting and complying with every command its US master gives.


That's one of the big questions, I think. We here in the US think we all on the same team. I'm hearing we're perceived as the playground bullies who dictate who gets to play the game. The problem we have is the reputation that precedes our image of what happens to countries who are "either with us or against us".
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 02:49 pm
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

Thanks, JPB, but the question refers to this expert's potential contribution to the DoD's cybersecurity effort I linked - how are the subjects connected?


Apparently he has multiple interests.

Quote:
Galison is interested in the intersection of philosophical and historical questions such as these: What, at a given time, convinces people that an experiment is correct? How do scientific subcultures form interlanguages of theory and things at their borders?

More broadly, Galison's main work explores the complex interaction between the three principal subcultures of twentieth century physics--experimentation, instrumentation, and theory. Source
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 03:04 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

This is not to say that I believe that there is an international conspiracy at work to get Assange behind bars, but if there is, I think you need to appreciate that it is more complex and less binary than you might suspect, and it almost certainly does not involve a pack of lapdog states awaiting and complying with every command its US master gives.


That's one of the big questions, I think. We here in the US think we all on the same team. I'm hearing we're perceived as the playground bullies who dictate who gets to play the game. The problem we have is the reputation that precedes our image of what happens to countries who are "either with us or against us".


Even if you accept the image that the US is an international bully, it doesn't create a scenario in which countries like the UK, Australia and Sweden will slavishly follow our orders. We have seen this to be the case time and time again and yet for some reason we are supposed to ignore all of the times countries like these have not complied with our wishes, and accept that with this one issue, the US is the puppet master pulling all of the strings.

If the UK, Australia, and Sweden are complying with the wishes of the US government in this matter, it is because it is in their interests to do so, not because their leaders long ago took some secret pledge to elevate the interests of the US over those of their own nations.

If all of the nations in the world are ruled by the Forces of Shadowy Secrets then in each of them are powerful people who want to quash Assange, irrespective of what the US desires. For all we know, countries like the UK, Australia and Sweden are working harder to convince the US to make a big deal out of this than to comply with any American orders on how to screw Assange.
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 03:09 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

For all we know, countries like the UK, Australia and Sweden are working harder to convince the US to make a big deal out of this than to comply with any American orders on how to screw Assange.


Well, I doubt we'll ever know unless someone steals those cables and passes them on to wikileaks, or we're still alive 30 years from now when they become available to the public.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 03:12 pm
Quote:
WARNING: Want a regular, down to earth guy? Keep moving. I am not the droid you're looking for. Save us both while you still can. Passionate, and often pig headed activist intellectual seeks siren for love affair, children and occasional criminal conspiracy.

Such a woman should [be] spirited and playful, of high intelligence, though not necessarily formally educated, have spunk, class & inner strength and be able to think strategically about the world and the people she cares about.

Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 03:14 pm
Well, I think that when/if the USA is focusing just and only on "the bad man Assange" - cause and effect are changed.

I still don't get why there isn't a large outcry in the USA: about 3 million could read any secret mail ... and even a low ranking military person could collect, read and distribute secret email from US-ambassadors in all countries of the world.

And trying to disable Wikileaks on the internet, banning the access to internationally well-reputable media just because they publish these papers ... that's not really a shining example for ... well, whatever
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2010 03:14 pm
@BillW,
And your point is?
 

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