Eliminate high school honors classes to increase diversity?

Sure, and if you were willing to have the record reflect which are the faster kids and which are the slower (academically) that would be fine....assuming that there is a way to get this done. If not then fast tracking the fast kids is a no-brainer.

I think I am.

Perhaps not the way it's done in the U. S., but I don't think all students belong in the same classroom. It's a horrible experience for students who aren't in the middle.

Not with the innovations in teaching! Imagine a laboratory where small groups of students are working diligently together - really almost oblivious to what the others are doing... It's not the tired old lecture format and crushing social experience.

How is it done successfully?

Yes. A points system reflecting the rigor of the material you chose and how you acquitted yourself. Absolutely.

as long as those who aggressively pursue knowledge and are highly intellectually functioning are rewarded and are noted in the record I have no problem with the rest of your approach.

Well, thank you darling!!

Sorry kid. This is truly one of those everything old is new again things.

You're talking about stuff that was done in the late 1960's, in the early 1980's ... etc etc.

It's like the ebb and flow on what works in parenting.

It really isn't anything new.

You're describing exactly what we studied in the late 70's/early 80's. I (undergrad thesis on co-operation in teaching etc etc) came through the other side and shook off the p.c. academic blinders.

It's great to have enthusiastic people entering the teaching stream - but you have to read all of the studies - pro and con (which the academics don't encourage - doesn't agree with their politics).

I'm not saying that "mainstreaming" is new - but added to the gains in learning styles, approaches/strategies, technology in schools, brain- based learning; the time seems great for progress.

I'm definitely not approaching teaching from a political view. I've followed what works. I realize there is a perpetual pendulum swing in education - and it is politically driven.

You want to make your argument for tracking? I'm very interested to hear.

Thank you, ehBeth, for showing some courage on that point!

If I'd had to sit through classes with CP types on a regular basis in high school it would have killed me. Don't get me wrong. College-prep kids weren't dumb or anything. But the attitude some of them had! Whenever a CP type ended up in one of my Honours classes, the rest of us had sit through his or her potty humour every five minutes. Not that the rest of us were dull. We made wisecracks as well, but they were germane wisecracks.

Of course, Lash's theories are all very impressive. I haven't had time to follow the links, so when I do perhaps all the answers will be revealed.

Before reading the articles, however, let me announce to all tracking's critics that I, too, am in favour of tracking--at least "fast-tracking" as one might call it in the case of G&T's.

(Okay, excuse the next bit, which is going to be so much shameless boasting, but...)

When I was in the 6th Grade I was learning Maths at a 9th-Grade level. Algebra was challenging, but it was where I needed to be. In the years that followed, no matter how many perfect scores I racked up on quizzes and tests, the clowns insisted on keeping me a mere 3 grade levels ahead of the curve. Everything after Algebra 2 more or less just repeated what I had learned in Algebra 2, and I was essentially just marking time from the 8th Grade on. Related-rates problems in 11th-Grade Calculus were first time I ever had to struggle in a Maths class. I twice petitioned the school to let me skip a grade in that subject and that subject only, but they refused.

Now, once I got to college I realised that Maths education does not necessarily have to proceed along a straight line. What I should have realised in high school was that instead of seeking to reach a higher level of mathematical knowledge, I could simply have sought a broader understanding of whatever level I was then at. Perhaps that's the solution Lash's system would offer a mathematical G&T; I am not sure.

Sorry about the rant, but Honours classes are very dear to me.

(BTW, I am against the sort of Soviet tracking that moulds some sixth graders for tractor seats and others for desks piled high with philosophical tracts.)

Yeah - well that wasn't the point. The point of that was to try to help you understand that people who care just as much as you do have been working on this issue for years and years and years...but yeah - you'll probably be the one who finds the answer and implements it.

You go girl!

Labs - right - I was going to honor's science and math labs when I was in junior high school- but they're an all new idea again- whatever.

Good post, Oy, listening..

Oh wait. I have to revisit this - my attitude is paternalistic and dismissive toward black students?
When all that I've expressed is that instead of teachers catering to the white students and treating the black students as square pegs that need to fit into round holes, that for once the black students are taught in the manner that most addresses their strengths and best elicits their strongest educational response as the default- even if it means that they don't attend honor's classes with white students - that perhaps that may avail them of the better education tailored to their particular learning styles and needs.

I don't know how you'd characterize that as paternalistic when in fact I'm saying that I don't think black students particularly need the same thing white students need - or even the title of 'honors' to legitimize what they do.
But I'm sure you'll find a way to make it negative.
Go for it - I know what I'm about.

This is starting to seem like some small personal jabfest. I'm really just interested in improving education.

Your pictures seemed as though you were using them as part of your argument, and I responded in a way I regret. Additionally, you seem compelled to say "I was doing this back when..." as though you feel called upon to defend yourself as a teacher... or say because it didn't work in that environment - it can't work in this one.

I've seen the methods described work. You've seen a lot in your career.

Let's try to stick with why tracking or raising all classes works or doesn't - if we choose to continue.

Raising all classes to Honors level wouldn't preclude brilliant students from skipping grades if it is warranted.

Fascinating narrative, btw. Thanks for sharing your story.

I don't feel the need to defend myself as a teacher. I just know that people can arrive at the same destination via differing routes.

And a title is a title - having been an honor's student in highschool means exactly what when you're 27 or 35 or 42?

I think it's silly to expand the honor's route in an effort to make it seem a more diverse and open route - when in reality you're asking students to conform for the sake of a silly title- and to look like they're something different from who or what they really are or want to be.

Honor's or not - I'm all about people being able to be who they really are without worrying about a title. And it has nothing to do with me not wanting all students to get a decent education.

I'm not talking about tracking at all - I'm talking about respecting diversity - in other words respecting wh0 and what people choose to be regardless of outside expectations.
There are many routes to becoming an educated person.

I am talking about teachers teaching all students with the same enthusiasm, diligence, care, and high expectations that Honors classes receive. It's not about a title for me - it's about the difference in teaching that goes on in those rooms. You can respect diversity and believe that all students can achieve high standards - if the ones who teach them believe it and offer it - in every class.

Well, I guess I don't see the difference in honor's classes and regular classes. I have friends who teach honors classes and friends who teach regular classes and I've collaborated in both (as the person who is there to adapt the curriculum for those who need it adapted in some way - for those who have dyslexia or a visual impairment for example) and I haven't seen a great difference. No - not at all.

Are you really telling me that you think people who teach honors courses are automatically more thorough and creative teachers?

In other words - that the one or two sections of honors history or english or math or science are more thoroughly and better taught than the other four or five sections of regular history or english or math or science in each grade?
I agree, the methods may be different, but I've never noticed the teachers were particularly more or less dedicated to the students.

Because honors being honors - the majority of the students are in regular sections - aren't they? So you're saying the majority of the students are receiving a substandard education as compared to the honors students?
That hasn't been my experience at all.
There's a difference between accelerated and substandard.

Most definitely. It has been my experience that teachers of higher levels, including (but not limited to) Honors are different people throughout the day - depending on who's young ones are sitting in front of them.

Thanks Lash,

Fwiw, I never claimed to be brilliant. Just rather good with numbers and shapes. Also, I should add (since race has played a part in the discussion) that my hometown was a nest of wealthy WASPs, and the "CP types" were rich white boys and girls who would rather have been out on their boats! But even they probably had potential for something...

Cheers,
Oylok

Well that right there would tell me that I wouldn't want my kid in those honors classes with that sort of person for a teacher.

So let me make sure I understand what you're saying. You're saying that these people who teach honors courses (in your school that you've seen) discriminate against students who display lesser ability - in other words they're hypocrites who care more about impressing the parents of certain 'gifted' children and less about providing a quality education for every student who walks through their classroom door?

Someone who could turn his or her commitment to students on and off based on something as shallow as the income and status of that student's parents' , is the absolute LAST person I'd want teaching my child or any other child.

I don't know how you can stand to get up and go to work with these people every day.

All I can say is, luckily, that's never been my experience. I can think of many, many teachers I've worked with who were tapped to teach classes at both ends of the learning spectrum - honors and collaborative (which means that they had a higher number of mainstreamed 'special-ed' kids and a collaborative special services teacher to modify and adapt their curriculum) specifically because of their ability to be creative and adaptive and committed to the art of teaching and meeting the needs of whichever sort of student walked into the room.

The only thing that changed for the honors students was the syllabus.
It was accelerated and enriched with DIFFERENT activities - not particularly BETTER activities - actually more straight reading and expository writing in an honors English or history class as compared to the regular classes which were still enriched but with a more diverse range of activities to meet the needs of a more diverse class body make-up.

I must have worked with a bunch of really good teachers who were also really good people. I never saw an incident of belittling or dismissal of any student based on his or her race or level of ability. If I had - I'd not have been able to stomach watching it with my mouth shut - I can tell you that.

And my kids went to the school in which I taught and I'd have been happy for them to have had the regular or honors classes. The deciding factor in my mind was whether or not my child had the work ethic and commitment to fulfill the extra requirements of the honors curriculum.
It was an extra responsibility on the part of the student, in my mind. As far as the teaching and education that were being provided,, I felt confident they'd have gotten what they needed from the regular classes- they were good - they had to be - the majority of the students were in regular and not honors classes.

I'm wondering where it is you teach.