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Eliminate high school honors classes to increase diversity?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Nov, 2010 10:03 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Essentially, having carefully studied how children learn, he came to the conclusion that each child is a unique example.
AND? SO what? we dont care how they get themselves from point A to point B, only that they make it in the time allowed....If they do then they can be considered for the next leg of intellectual and skill attainment, if not then they have washed out.

The standard is that they get the job done, how they do it speaks to their nature and ingenuity which is helpful in evaluating their performance, but the main concern is the quality of their work....Which teachers are supposed to judge and score.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Nov, 2010 10:57 pm
@hawkeye10,
You do know that much of the money spent on schools goes to maintenance, utilities and construction, don't you? During academic 2006-2007, Arlington, MA spent $100,000 heating the buildings.

A great many parents honestly do not want their kids to be educated.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Nov, 2010 11:01 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
I think you are missing Lash's point. She's looking at kids in potency and you're looking at kids in act to borrow the script from my philosophy classes.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Nov, 2010 11:03 pm
@hawkeye10,
I don't think competition is necessary. In fact, I'm leaning toward competition being destructive.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Nov, 2010 11:07 pm
@plainoldme,
Quote:
I don't think competition is necessary. In fact, I'm leaning toward competition being destructive.
Distruction is necessary, and humans interact with each other both competitively and cooperatively...we should not miseducate kids by claiming otherwise.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Nov, 2010 11:35 pm
@Lash,
Why wouldn't the administration be puzzled that busing hasn't worked as they expected?

This is the precise reason why the children have been bused to your school - so they could have the benefit of the same education as kids in the less affluent part of town. They argued it would work, they counted on it working, and now that it's not they are wondering why. Their current curiosity, if not their original plan, makes sense to me.

Of course the home conditions you describe are some of the reasons it hasn't worked. Others might be that the kids are exhausted when they get home each day because of the additional time they have spent commuting, their attitude about learning is challenged by the sense of social inferiority they experience in a school where the locals (including those of their own races) are far more affluent and materially privileged, or the near and more distant cultural influences they experience in their community that not only do not include an appreciation of education but contain a thinly veiled disdain for it.

Some might think that two years has not been long enough for the program to be successful, and that's certainly a possibility. They may also assume that since the parent's of the 8 students being bused had to choose to send their kids to your school, that they had de facto expressed interest in their children's educations, but that is by no means a certainty.

All three of my children spent their entire public school careers in a system that involved either children being bused to their neighborhood schools, or their being bused to schools in what you would call a ghetto.

This was for considerably more than 2 years, and, with limited exception, parents had no choice. At the end of all those years the system administrators were also curious as to why the results they expected hadn't been achieved.

There was a rather sizeable group of parents from the less affluent communities who came to the conclusion that for a number of reasons (some which have been stated) their children were not being served by busing and that they preferred to have them attended neighborhood schools, even if that meant racial re-segregation. I'm sure that you will not be surprised that there were already a group of parents from the affluent communities who agreed with the assessment that busing wasn't serving the needs of their children either.

For years, before these parents took advantage of their votes, the city's racially mixed school board rejected their request and stuck with busing, and expectations were not met. The plan wasn't working.

I attended a great many of the board meetings and there were plenty of parents and board members who argued that the plan was not only sound, it was fair, and the only legal option available. They were confident it would prove successful, and by the way, we could be proud that our city had shown the way for years to the rest of the nation, and especially the South.

There were also parents and board members who made it clear that whether or not the plan had any chance of working, affluent (and predominantly white) families were not going to keep their kids from coming into their neighborhoods.

There were also plenty of parents who expressed support for busing as the correct and fair approach to take when their children were in elementary schools and the less affluent children were being bused in, but who sent their kids to private school when they hit the middle-school years and were subject to being bused to the ghettos.

Eventually, the program was modified to the extent that affluent children were no longer bused to less than affluent neighborhood schools and new schools were built in affluent (predominantly white) neighborhoods that didn't have less affluent children bused to them. Not surprisingly, many of the affluent parents who moved to these neighborhoods remained solidly in favor of continued busing of less than affluent children to the older affluent schools. After all, despite what the growing bloc of less than affluent parents believed about neighborhood schools, busing was the correct and fair approach.

This was the state of the school system when my youngest graduated High School and we moved out of state not long after. I believe that some busing may continue but the approach of neighborhood schools (in all neighborhoods) is now predominant. I'm afraid I don't know if the overall educational results have improved or declined.

I totally agree with you that no child should ever be considered “substandard,” nor do I believe they should be relegated to what essentially amounts to holding tank classes until they reach the legal age at which point can drop out. If alternative teaching methods can be shown to be effective, they should be employed so that even children who have achievement difficulties (whatever their source) get a very good chance at obtaining the education they deserve and need.
We should never allow a system where the “smart” kids get the good teachers and the “dumb” kids get the bad ones. I think an argument can easily be made that the most challenged children should be taught by the most highly trained and skilled teachers, but an essential foundation of this argument must be that we no longer allow systems to have both “good” teachers and “bad” ones.
I totally disagree with you that so-called “honor” classes should be discontinued.
I didn’t see your reasoning for doing away with them. If I missed it, please point me in the right direction, and if I didn’t, would you mind elaborating on it?
If honor classes are disproportionately one race or another then spend the time and effort to determine the true reasons for the disparity and attempt to properly address them. Properly addressing them does not mean establishing racial, economic status or other class quotas, nor does it mean coming up with “new and innovative” ways to identify “honor” grade students, the sole purpose of which is to enable quotas.

Just as challenged students should not be ignored for the good of the individuals and society , gifted students should not be short changed. Using them as resources for the education of challenged students is acceptable only if it can be clearly shown that such an approach is in their best interest as well. In other words, doing away with honor classes so challenged students will sit in the same classrooms as gifted students is not acceptable.


aidan
 
  0  
Reply Sun 28 Nov, 2010 01:55 am
@Lash,
Quote:
I agree. This is why I ensure they all get the best education I can offer - so they can choose from a position of strength, rather than ignorance.


Yeah, me too. And my 20+ years of living with (my own two children) and teaching mostly black children who have learning styles that differ from the 'norm' or average' have taught me that throwing a bunch of kids with differing cultural backgrounds and learning styles together in a room and calling it 'honors' so that everyone gets to feel good about him or herself is a disaster waiting to happen - and most especially for the black kids or the ones with learning styles that differ from the norm.

This doesn't mean I think they are genetically inferior or not as smart or as lovely - hey - if anything my prejudice runs in the other direction - I think they can be smarter, and I hate to say it but usually more fun - that's why I've chosen to hang with them my entire professional (and personal as a matter of fact) life. But I'm not going to do them the disservice of pretending they're the same- and that they learn the same and that they pull the same meanings out of the same texts as someone who has different experiences will.
And why should they have to be the same?

You know - a smart, black kid that wants to hang out in the honor's classes will. In all the school systems I've worked in - admission into the honor's classes had nothing at all to do with standardized test scores. It is on the suggestion of the teacher. So if a kid seems to be someone who would benefit from an honor's class - s/he's in.

And maybe you just work in some whack school system, but I was talking about this with my son last night and I asked him (he's essentially black in his teacher's eyes - he looks black) 'You know Joseph - when you were in school and you were sitting next to a little white boy and you both were doing your work and behaving and participating - did you ever feel like the teacher treated you any differently than she did the little white boy?'
And he said, 'No.'
And then I asked him which kids got treated differently and he said it was the kids who misbehaved and didn't do their work - regardless of their race.

So are you seriously telling me that in this day and age you work in a school system where black kids are treated like 'substandard' citizens?
Because I have to say, if I ever saw that in any school I worked in - I'd be blowing the roof off the joint.
Then:

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k46/aidan_010/SCAN0045.jpg
One of my first jobs in education: Infant Health and Development Program - in West Philadelphia in conjunction with University of Pennsylvania- we provided services to infants who'd been born prematurely in an effort to bring them up to speed in time for school - we also provided training and education to their parents.
Excuse the whack haircut...(on me)

Now: me last month with one of my students who graduated in 2006 and we're still in touch. I don't give up on kids either.
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k46/aidan_010/meanddashawn.jpg


roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Nov, 2010 03:19 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:


... Yeah, me too. And my 20+ years of living with (my own two children) and teaching mostly black children who have learning styles that differ from the 'norm' or average' have taught me that throwing a bunch of kids with differing cultural backgrounds and learning styles together in a room and calling it 'honors' so that everyone gets to feel good about him or herself is a disaster waiting to happen - and most especially for the black kids or the ones with learning styles that differ from the norm.


I would like to hear more about different learning styles, though this might not be the thread. Maybe it's something I'm familiar with by a different name, but it does sound interesting.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Nov, 2010 03:21 am
@hawkeye10,
No, i'm sure you don't care. Educators, for very good reasons, care about this.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Nov, 2010 03:29 am
@roger,
Roger - I think this is a perfect place to post this article. Thanks for asking- I'd not have thought of it otherwise:
The problem I see that could possibly arise by trying to integrate these different learning styles in a class that is called 'honors' is that the middle class white parents would be expecting something totally different from what their child would be getting if it were to play to the strengths of the students who didn't learn best in the same way that other children do.

It'd be wonderful if it could work - but I think it'd be a pretty hard job - not only to make it work, but to get the parents in the district to accept it as an 'honor's' class.

The article in its entirety can be found here: http://www.uic.edu/las/afam/courses/aast201/110602Learning_Styles_African_American_Children.pdf

Quote:
Learning Styles of African American Children:
A Review of the Literature and Interventions
Madge Gill Willis
Nov 6, 2002
Jan Yuhas
• There are three parts to African American learning styles
1. Underlying assumptions about black children’s learning styles
2. Characteristics of their learning styles
3. Suggestions for future research and development as well as implications for interventions involving curriculum, instruction, and assessment
• Assumptions
1. Learning styles: a way of perceiving, conceptualizing, and problem solving
2. Culture affects cognition, attitude, behavior, and personality
3. African Americans are strongly influenced by their African heritage and culture
4. The differences between Black and White children’s cognitive functioning and learning styles are simply that- differences- and not deficits
• Black Learning Styles
*According to Boykin (1983) there are nine dimensions that are expressed by Blacks in learning situations:
1. Spirituality- a belief that powers greater than man exist and are at work.
2. Harmony- man and his environment are interpedently connected; this applies to integrating the parts of one’s life into a harmonious whole.
3. Movement- a rhythmic orientation to life that may be manifested in music and dance as well as in behavior and approach
4. Verve- the psychological aspect of the movement dimension, involves a preference to be simultaneously attuned to several stimuli rather than a singular, routinized, or bland orientation; energetic, intense.
5. Affect- emotional expressiveness and sensitivity to emotional cues; integration of feelings with cognitive elements.
6. Communalism- interdependence of people; social orientation.
7. Expressive individualism- focus on a person’s unique style or flavor in an activity; spontaneity; manifested in a unique tilt of a hat, a walk, a jazz musician’s rendition
8. Orality- importance of information learned and transmitted orally; call and response pattern
9. Social time perspective- time is viewed in terms of the event rather than the clock; for example, and event begins when everyone arrives
• Shade (1982) on the other hand revised Boykin’s dimensions into the following five:
1. Worldview- greater cautiousness, suspiciousness, and apprehension among Blacks, as measured by the 16 PF and understood as the result of living in an urban society with a history of racial prejudice
2. Social cognition- in their perception of people. Blacks had more of an affective focus as opposed to a physical focus; in social interactions Blacks focused more on the people and Whites focused more on the task demand of the situation.
3. Stimulus variety- similar to Boykin’s verve
4. Conceptual tempo- refers to whether a person is more reflective or impulsive; Shade found a lack of evidence to support the commonly held assumption that Blacks are more impulsive; noteworthy is the role of the wise elders in traditional African society who are often described as very reflective thinkers.
5. Field dependence/independence- Witkin’s (1977) construct; field dependent persons need cues from the environment, they prefer external structure, are people-oriented, are intuitive thinkers, and remember material in a social context; field independent persons develop structure themselves, can pull out cues embedded in a context, prefer to work alone, are object- and task-oriented, and are analytical thinkers; Blacks were found to be more field dependent and Whites were more field independent.
• Shade (1986) studied perceptual, intellectual, and social domains of Black and White high school students
* he found no difference for the intellectual domain
* he did find significant differences for the social and perceptual domains
• Hillard (1976) formed two types of schools to conduct his study
-refer to table 20.1 for the attributes of each school
1. Atomistic-objective schools: are schools as they are
*tended to be better learning styles for White students
*regularity, environmental control, objectivity
2. Synthetic-personal schools: schools as they could be
*would be better for Black students
*experimentation, improvisation, harmonious interaction
• Key Factors for African American learning
*Cooperation is an important dimension of African American children’s learning styles
*Communication style
• Black Children’s learning style can be integrated into four groupings:
1. Social /Affective: people-oriented, emphasis on affective domain, social interaction is crucial, social learning is common.
2. Harmonious: interdependence and harmonic/communal aspects of people and environment are respected and encouraged, knowledge is sought for practical, utilitarian, and relevant purposes, holistic approaches to experiences, synthesis is sought.
3. Expressive creativity: creative, adaptive, variable, novel, stylistic, intuitive, simultaneous stimulation is preferred, verve, oral expression.
4. Nonverbal: nonverbal communication is important (intonation, body language, etc.), movement and rhythm components are vital.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Nov, 2010 03:48 am
@aidan,
I'm going to have to read it tomorrow. My eyes are having trouble following the lines right now. My initial impression, at least of the first nine assumptions, is that it's an outline waiting to be filled in. It would be fascinating to see some of them developed.

Thanks
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Nov, 2010 05:32 am
@roger,
If you click on the link for the article, it's written in a more cohesive style - although I don't know why the author consistently writes 'dose' for 'does'.
Other than that - from my experience- she's right on target.

The teaching style that is more successful for black children doesn't claim to address learning disabilities or difficulties so much as the language/communication/perceptual and behavioral differences inherently present due to the cultural differences black and white children typically encounter in their communities and environments- which can't help but overflow into school- and have an effect on their learning and performance.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 28 Nov, 2010 10:18 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Not even the chronically malicious and persistently violent ones ?

not substandard ?

what is the standard ?
hawkeye10 wrote:

Umm, you eliminate the standard, and then no kid will be sub standard see? It also means that no kids will be exceptional, which tends to piss off and discourage the geniuses. My daughter was pissed that being number one in her high school class did not even get her a mention, much less a speech. Her school does not believe in letting the dumb lazy kids know that they are dumb and lazy, so much so that pointing out the best of the best is considered offensive.
When the communists conquered cities,
among the first things that thay did was to murder those citizens
of leading intelligence. The commies woud lunge for a Mensa list.
(In theory; I don 't know that thay ever actually DID that.)
Pol Pot, in Cambodia, defined wearing glasses or a wristwatch
as being indicative of higher I.Q. and subject to death in all who were caught with them.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 28 Nov, 2010 10:44 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
I guess we all have standards...and various ways to look at things.
I think children should be treated like children
When I was a kid in school, I detested that and resented it,
bearing in my mind that these were MY EMPLOYEES, who were guilty of it.





Lash wrote:
until they graduate from high school. I feel it is incumbent on a decent society to make their best effort to educate children and care for them during these years. Some of them make serious mistakes during this time - but we should never throw in the towel on these kids as long as they're school aged.
What about those students who have maliciously murdered their teachers and principals ?
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Nov, 2010 11:38 am
@aidan,
Cosmetic changes for political expediency has nothing to do with what I propose. I couldn't give less of a damn how politically bent people feel - I want education to improve.

Like here: http://www.upcsinstitute.org/

They don't arrange classes at this school to massage the liberal sensibility. They teach all courses as Honors to get high results from students. It's working. ALL classes should be Honors classes.

We are all thrown into the world next to people with different strengths, perceptions and styles... grouping heterogeneously and allowing them to learn from each other - appreciate one another and see from varying viewpoints is a marvelous way to teach content, collaboration, and social skills. Your attitude (based on what?) sees potential disaster - and I have seen personal growth and success. Many times, you see what you expect.

Quote:
But I'm not going to do them the disservice of pretending they're the same- and that they learn the same and that they pull the same meanings out of the same texts as someone who has different experiences will.

My point exactly. Do all white people pull out the same thing?? Jeez. People benefit from exploring differences. On an Honors level. We shouldn't bar black students from exemplary teaching or from the value of participating in respected, critical dialogue.

Quote:
You know - a smart, black kid that wants to hang out in the honor's classes will.

Stats show black kids bypass academic success - or at least the noticeable trappings of academic success because of social pressure. By making all classes Honors level, this is one more barrier your average black student doesn't have to deal with...

I think your attitude is paternalistic - and dismissive toward black students. Pictures of you surrounded by black kids won't change that.

****, I don't even want my white students all pulling the same meaning from text...
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Nov, 2010 11:50 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Well, OmSig, this seems li8ke a really silly line of conversation to follow....but ok.

I think if a kid is messed up enough to murder, someone has failed him/her miserably. I hope they are offered all the services they need to get mentally healthy; and that, if they comply with treatment, and are judged to be a good risk - that they get a second chance at life. I just happen to think they should pay restitution to the family of the person they killed for most of their life.

0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Nov, 2010 12:11 pm
@roger,
Here is an explanation.
http://www.spannj.org/BasicRights/appendix_b.htm

We test to get an idea of the student's strengths and weaknesses. A good teacher is already using multifaceted approaches to reach visually and through auditory stimuli, but if you're having a problem with a particular student - it's good to have their individual learning criteria on hand. Sometimes, the questions lead a teacher to innovative methods with a particular student.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Nov, 2010 12:21 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
appreciate one another and see from varying viewpoints is a marvelous way to teach content, collaboration, and social skills.


kinda interesting seeing you post from inside the 1970's P. C. rabbit hole

the old skool is the new school. again.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Nov, 2010 12:25 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Hey, Finn.

I despise quotas, as I imagine you do. I also don't want you to think I am advocating any type of watered down class, that dulls learning.

I want the best teachers doing their best work for all students. There is a grading rubric that allows students to opt for a less rigorous read and earn less points than the person sitting beside them reading quite dense material. But the student is still writing the paper within the prescribed rules. They are excelling - and the point distribution awards result appropriately.

Grouping kids of varying strengths together and assigning them specific roles is a great way to enrich all of them - They really do ALL have valuable insights to offer.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Nov, 2010 12:30 pm
@ehBeth,
I would throw out concern about collaboration and social skills if I hadn't seen peer teaching really grab heads. I know you can't be advocating tracking.
 

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