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Eliminate high school honors classes to increase diversity?

 
 
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 01:23 pm
One of the most racially mixed high schools in Illinois, Evanston has a mission of embracing diversity and promoting equity and excellence for all students. But its own data show that few minority students make it into the school's most rigorous courses that will best prepare them for college and the future.

Honors classrooms dominated by white students have been common in Illinois and across the nation, a byproduct of a century-old and controversial tradition of tracking, or sorting, students into different levels of classes.

Across the Chicago region, high school officials say they are making inroads in diversifying their advanced classes, but Evanston is considering the boldest step of all: eliminating an elite honors English course that has traditionally been offered to the highest-achieving incoming freshmen — usually white.

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The dilemma: a high school offers honors-level courses that are filled overwhelmingly with white students, while non-white students make up a majority of the "average" classes. The solution: eliminate the honors courses and place those students in the "average" classes. Is that the right approach?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 20 • Views: 16,957 • Replies: 231

 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 01:43 pm
A better solution might be to attempt to identify what it is about the rating of students' skills that tends to "select" white students in the first place. Is it culture?
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  4  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 01:47 pm
@joefromchicago,
Eliminating these classes in high school won't solve anything because the problem started much earlier than that with white kids going to well funded, mostly white schools and minority kids going to underfunded, mostly minority schools.

Standardized testing bears a lot of the blame and research is showing that it is increasing the "race gap" in schools.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 01:53 pm
@joefromchicago,
The job of education is to educate youth, it is not to support or peddle social theories. Students are to be placed in honors classes on academic merit, so long as this is done the composition of the classes is irrelevant. If someone thinks that more of some race or sex should be in those classes by all means they should get out and try to encourage those people to work harder.

Likewise,we need to get rid of this nonsense at the university. Admittance should be by merit, not the attempt to create some ideal population of racial and gender group mixture that somebody or another has fantasized about.

The is yet another bit of evidence showing how completely the education system is broken...these fools no longer even remember what their job is.
Mame
 
  3  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 02:06 pm
Would eliminating the honors classes have a negative impact on those enrolled in them? By preventing them from enrolling in certain colleges/universities? If so, I would be against it.

They should try to determine what is stopping other students, no matter what colour, from enrolling and work on that, instead.
boomerang
 
  3  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 02:06 pm
They aren't talking about eliminating the class, they're talking about making it open to everyone who passed the state's 8th grade test:

Quote:
For the most part, freshmen of all races and socioeconomic and achievement backgrounds would learn together in the same freshman humanities class, an English course that blends literature, history, art, music and philosophy and is required for graduation. The class would be taught at the honors level, according to district officials, and all students would have the opportunity to earn honors credit depending on their grades on assignments
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 02:08 pm
@boomerang,
This is more like it . . . if there is a reliably objective means of identifying students by intelligence, rather than their familiarity with the Western Canon, that would go a long way to solving problems such as this.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  3  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 02:08 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

Evanston is considering the boldest step of all: eliminating an elite honors English course that has traditionally been offered to the highest-achieving incoming freshmen — usually white.

The solution: eliminate the honors courses and place those students in the "average" classes. Is that the right approach?


This is what I was speaking to. And no, that doesn't solve anything. Why should top students be penalized, whatever colour they are? This is just dumbing things down.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 02:22 pm
@Mame,
Mame wrote:

Would eliminating the honors classes have a negative impact on those enrolled in them? By preventing them from enrolling in certain colleges/universities? If so, I would be against it.

There's certainly no requirement to have honors courses on a student's record in order to go to college -- even elite colleges -- but I imagine it's something that colleges look for. On the other hand, Evanston grads will be competing for college spots with students from other districts who did have honors courses.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 02:26 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
Evanston grads will be competing for college spots with students from other districts who did have honors courses
yep, way to penalize the best interests local citizens in the name of a pet cause...it will also drive down the local tax base and the home values of all as parents vacate for homes in better run school districts.. a nice one-two punch to yourself if I ever saw one.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 02:27 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

They aren't talking about eliminating the class, they're talking about making it open to everyone who passed the state's 8th grade test:

I read that part too, but I guess I remain suspicious. Clearly, not all of the students in a single, "mixed-level" class will be learning at the old honors level. The teachers, therefore, will, in effect, have to teach two different courses simultaneously. If that were easy, I imagine the school district would have been doing that all along. That the school district had once thought it was advantageous to separate the advanced from the average classes suggests, however, that it's not such an easy trick to pull off.

I would also point out that the district offers a "remedial" level for below-average students, and as far as I know nobody is suggesting that those classes should be eliminated and the students placed in "mixed-level" classes. So it's only the advanced-level students who are being "integrated" into the average classes.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  4  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 02:27 pm
@Mame,
"Color" actually plays a big role in tracking -- and at least this district has the balls to call the honor program what it is -- tracking.

Study after study (and I've posted those links elsewhere in the education threads) shows that if schools don't offer honors courses (detracking) that white middle class people leave the district or opt for private schools.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  3  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 02:49 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

"But its own data show that few minority students make it into the school's most rigorous courses that will best prepare them for college and the future."


And therefore the most rigorous courses that will best prepare majority kids for college and the future should be elimnated.

If everyone cannot benefit equally... no one should.
roger
 
  3  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 03:16 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

If everyone cannot benefit equally... no one should.


Exactly! And not everyone can benefit from a college education, so we could eliminate college.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 03:23 pm
@boomerang,
You are better informed on this subject in the contemporary environment than i am. I read extensively about the issue of standardized testing in the 1970s. I can't give links, because there was no interweb in those days. But from reading links you have provided, it appears that many of the same problems remain.

A student raised in a home in which they are required to speak "grammatically correct" English, in which they will be encouraged to read Robinson Crusoe and Huckleberry Finn, in which they will have heard of Plato and Picasso will always be identified by standardized testing as superior in the subject matter which will qualify them for an honors English course. This is no measure of intelligence. Familiarity with the Western Canon and the giants of philosophy, art and literature in Western civlization will not help them with math or science--but it will get them into an honors English or literature course.

The child of a minority family who is not expected to speak "the Queen's English," who isn't taken down to the library to read James Fennimore Cooper and Charles Dickens, who doesn't know who Matisse and Mozart are can be just as intelligent--but won't qualify for the honors course on the basis of standardized testing.

I am not surprised to read the sarcastic comments of those who would defend the bastions of the white, Protestant ascendancy.
hawkeye10
 
  5  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 04:24 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
I am not surprised to read the sarcastic comments of those who would defend the bastions of the white, Protestant ascendancy.
if you think than honors classes are being used to promote a class, in your assertion WASPs, then show how they have been unfairly advantaged in the entry requirement....and claiming that your choice for these classes are too dumb too get in or too disinterested to apply or that mastering Western culture should not count does not cut it . There needs to be equal opportunity, we shoot ourselves in the foot when we aim for equal results because to get there we need to dumb down our brightest prospects. Look around, fool, we need every whip smart capable adult that we can produce...as we have lots of intractable problems in this society,many have waited decades for bright solutions. You people pining for a feel-good everybody is equal no matter what the individuals are ready/willing/able to do utopia are in desperate need of a 2x4 upside the head.
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 05:19 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
then show how they have been unfairly advantaged in the entry requirement


Quote:
A study of math scores on the 1992 National Assessment of Educational Progress found that the combination of four variables unrelated to instruction (number of parents living at home, parents’ educational background, type of community [e.g., “disadvantaged urban,” “extreme rural”], and state poverty rate) explained a whopping 89 percent of the differences in state scores. In fact, one of those variables, the number of students who had one parent living at home, accounted for 71 percent of the variance all by itself. See Glen E. Robinson and David P. Brandon, NAEP Test Scores: Should They Be Used to Compare and Rank State Educational Quality? (Arlington, Va.: Educational Research Service, 1994). The same pattern holds within states. In Massachusetts, five factors explained 90 percent of the variance in scores on the Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment System (MCAS) exam, leading a researcher to conclude that students’ performance “has almost everything to do with parental socioeconomic backgrounds and less to do with teachers, curricula, or what the children learned in the classroom. ” See Kevin J. Clancy, “Making More Sense of MCAS Scores,” Boston Globe, 24 April 2000, p. A19. Another study looked just at the poverty level in each of 593 districts in Ohio and found a .80 correlation with 1997 scores on that state’s proficiency test, meaning that this measure alone explained nearly two-thirds of the differences in test results. See Randy L. Hoover, “Forces and Factors Affecting Ohio Proficiency Test Performance,” available at http://cc.ysu.edu/~rlhoover/OPT. Even a quick look at the grades given to Florida schools under that state’s new rating system found that “no school where less than 10% of the students qualify for free lunch scored below a C, and no school where more than 80% of the students qualify scored above a C.” See Jodi Wilgoren, “Florida’s Vouchers a Spur to Two Schools Left Behind,” New York Times, 14 March 2000, p. A18. Then there is the SAT, which, far from being a measure of merit (sometimes pointedly contrasted with affirmative action criteria), is largely a measure of family income. Break down the test takers by income, measured in $10,000 increments, and without exception the scores rise with each jump in parents’ earnings. See “1999 College Bound Seniors’ Test Scores: SAT,” FairTest Examiner, Fall 1999, p. 13; the information is also available at www.collegeboard.org.

Cycloptichorn
 
  7  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 05:22 pm
Are they serious? Honors classes were the only thing that kept me from being absolutely bored to death in high school. And the concept that people who aren't able mentally to keep up, or who aren't educationally prepared to do so, will be able to learn at that same level or speed is a joke. A total joke.

Cycloptichorn
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 05:24 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:
The solution: eliminate the honors courses and place those students in the "average" classes. Is that the right approach?


no
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 05:35 pm
@boomerang,
Quote:
students qualify for free lunch scored below a C, and no school where more than 80% of the students qualify scored above a C.” See Jodi Wilgoren, “Florida’s Vouchers a Spur to Two Schools Left Behind,” New York Times, 14 March 2000, p. A18. Then there is the SAT, which, far from being a measure of merit (sometimes pointedly contrasted with affirmative action criteria), is largely a measure of family income. Break down the test takers by income, measured in $10,000 increments, and without exception the scores rise with each jump in parents’ earnings
Pointing out that kids from better classes tend to do better in school does not show that race or gender groups are disadvantaged by the entry requirements for honors classes. It shows that successful parents produce successful kids, part of which is due to economic advantage, some of it by class priorities, and some of it by genetics. This is to be expected, and even if we get rid of honors successful parents will still produce successful children, only those children when not have as many of the tools as they now do to help themselves and everyone else.
 

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