66
   

Why believe in god? The theist perspective.

 
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Sat 28 May, 2016 06:44 am
@kency123,
Quote:
we're on such different wavelengths
Not sure what you mean here. I am a theist and I assume you are not, but you knew that from the start. If not that, what do you think separates us?
kency123
 
  1  
Sat 28 May, 2016 08:55 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
what do you think separates us?


It's your use of the word testable which has defeated me here. I've explained a lot my view that the scientific method is what finds us the truth, so your view that unlikely success is testable evidence of the bible shows a fundamental and irreconcilable difference in our thought processes.

I'm from England, and the Church of England nowadays openly admit they can't test or prove the bible - and don't try to. They pitch themselves in a more heart, soul, guidance way, and play down literal instructions or explanations from the bible because fewer people, including themselves, can see the logic. Organised religion has declined here, more people say they think there might be just 'something out there' than accept the truth of one religion. Because, well, how can we know?
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Sun 29 May, 2016 08:36 am
@kency123,
Quote:
I'm from England, and the Church of England nowadays openly admit they can't test or prove the bible - and don't try to. They pitch themselves in a more heart, soul, guidance way, and play down literal instructions or explanations from the bible because fewer people, including themselves, can see the logic.
That is the response of most religions. I think it is a cowardly way to handle the challenges presented by the bible if you are going to accept the book as meaningful.

The bible itself has an appropriate response to those religions: It says that "They have a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof."

I agree that just one test is not enough to prove the validity of the bible. My 'success' could have been just a fluke. But there comes a point when the tests all come out positive that it convinces. I don't expect anyone else to be convinced, the tests have to be done and experienced by one soul at a time.
0 Replies
 
AugustineBrother
 
  2  
Thu 30 Jun, 2016 08:29 am
@msolga,
Reason convinced me of God. And that is what theism is, it is not religion.

Your question shows you are a Fideist. Neither Christianity nor Judaism would say you are speaking of Faith in any sense.

As for my own Catholic Church I think Pope JPII saw your essential problem here:

"Fideism, in holding that the truths of faith do not depend on any rational presupposition, thinks that the fact itself of Revelation requires no justification from reason, which makes faith purely a question of personal conviction."

And this is your presupposition but it is indefensible. I am a convert and one of the chief prods to my conversion was to realize that people who 'think' like you do are strongly religious but they are Fideist and anti-reason at least in regards to God

I recommend to people like you the following book

Truth in Religion: The Plurality of Religions and the Unity of Truth
by Mortimer J. Adler

===================
"I suspect that most of the individuals who have religious faith are content with blind faith. They feel no obligation to understand what they believe. They may even wish not to have their beliefs disturbed by thought. But if God in whom they believe created them with intellectual and rational powers, that imposes upon them the duty to try to understand the creed of their religion. Not to do so is to verge on superstition."

- Mortimer J. Adler

Mortimer J. Adler, "A Philosopher’s Religious Faith," in Kelly James-Clark (ed.),
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Thu 30 Jun, 2016 08:46 am
@AugustineBrother,
A gold star for that post August. The idea that belief requires blind faith is one of the most pernicious lies on the planet.
0 Replies
 
trichakra
 
  1  
Mon 29 Aug, 2016 05:36 am
Because god created the universe.
0 Replies
 
catbeasy
 
  1  
Mon 29 Aug, 2016 07:53 pm
@AugustineBrother,
I agree that reason can and logically so, lead you to believe in a sentient being who is 'greater' than us.

However, that same reason cannot lead you to believe in any particular God. There is not one of us who, not knowing anything about any particular religion could reason their way into that religion.

No child I know of that was never taught the gospel of christ and all other aspects/features of biblical 'truth' ever came into this knowledge without being told about the bible and that specific dogma/truth.

Once you are told these things, is it then 'reasonable to believe'.

That's an interesting question. We might want to first define reason to go that deep, but my cyber ink is running out, so you'll have to humour me on the definition.

You have to peel back the layers. When I was told about the gospel, it seemed reasonable to me. But only because I signed off on a whole slew of presumptions. Like believing that we are all sinners. Before you go off on asking me if I don't believe in sin, yes I do. I believe in evil as WE define it.

So, with that in mind, the issue is believing in sin as defined by the bible. The next issue is believing that someone named Jesus lived and died and was resurrected. There is also the belief in a God who commands wholesale slaughter and then preaches love (including in the old testament).

There are a whole poop load of other things that are presumed that are part of the belief in a specific God. And so many of them cannot be reasoned.

You can believe we all do evil. I believe that's reasonable by looking at our own behaviour and others, but you cannot reason the idea that one man sinned and therefore we are all sinners. That is either fact or not and cannot be derived from observation. You have to have faith that that is true.

A-Bro - believe me when I say that this whole issue of 'reasonable faith' is completely, utterly, totally conflated by the idea of: a being that is 'greater' than us.

As I said, this is reasonable. We are creators. Animals are creators. It stands to reason that it is LOGICALLY possible (but not necessarily so) that there is another creator.

But any analysis further from that is futile, by reason, in proving all of the things said in religious writings about God and his personality and supposed behaviour.

And if we really want to get into the weeds, we can actually use our reason to argue against such a creature. I intimated at it earlier in the contradictions posed by its command for wholesale slaughter and then telling us to love one another.

And believe me again, I've heard all the gymnastic gyrations, worthy of Gold in any Rationalizing Olympics, that try to make these ideas sympathetic with each other and it just doesn't work.

Here I applaud the Christian who says that philosophy and current moral trends try to doubt that morality exists, that its relative. Yet the irony doesn't escape me either that they do not take their own advice when it comes to analysis of their own God! I understand why though..they simply cannot be wrong.

Christianity, religion is not reasonable in its dogmas, but perfectly reasonable in positing a 'higher' power.

So, other than the existence of a higher power (whatever that might mean) do you have an example of Christianity that can be deduced by reason?
CrisTianUk
 
  1  
Mon 3 Oct, 2016 06:37 pm
@plainoldme,
Perhaps an angel singing praise to God?
0 Replies
 
Susmariosep
 
  1  
Mon 26 Jun, 2017 05:13 pm
@msolga,
I stumbled upon this thread of msolga and I think that I like very much to engage in thinking with him, on the matter of what is the God I know to exist and He denies to exist.

And we will employ truths, facts, logic, and the best thoughts of mankind from since the dawn of man's conscious intelligence.

That means that we will not bring in revelations in religions, unless and except they be texts from these revelations to be taken by us, as purely the fruits of human thinking, based in turn on the thinking of ancient men on truths, facts, logic, and the history of the best thoughts of mankind in their times and climes since, in their turn the dawn of man's conscious intelligence.

Quote:
From msolga Mon 22 Nov, 2010 07:46 pm
-----------------------------------

I personally don’t believe in a god, but I have started this discussion thread for those A2Kers who do.

Why? : Because I have seen post after post, thread after thread, disrupted by theist A2Kers arguing against atheism. Generally on threads created for entirely different purposes. I'm surprised one of you hasn't created a thread for this purpose already.

[...]




I am a theist, and I tell you that for myself a theist of the Christian school, in concept God is first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

Now, I like very much to read from you what is your concept of God, which God is one of the gods you deny to exist.

Here is my concept of God, in concept God is first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

What is the concept from you of God, which God is one of the gods you deny to exist?
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Tue 27 Jun, 2017 02:15 pm
@catbeasy,
Quote:
As I said, this is reasonable. We are creators. Animals are creators. It stands to reason that it is LOGICALLY possible (but not necessarily so) that there is another creator.

But any analysis further from that is futile, by reason, in proving all of the things said in religious writings about God and his personality and supposed behaviour.

So why stop your reasoning at 'proving all things in religious writings'?
If you have a valid starting point and one path of reasoning proves futile, why give up when reason and logic provides any number of other paths and possibilities.

It sounds like you are limiting yourself to the paths suggested by religious dogma.
0 Replies
 
Susmariosep
 
  0  
Tue 27 Jun, 2017 04:46 pm
Dear Leadfoot, you are not connected, I am asking all atheists here, what is your concept of God, which is one of the gods you deny to exist.

Dear readers, that is what I see with atheists, they are always and totally into evasiveness, never saying anything they know to be true, factual, certain, and sure, at least with their reservation that insofar as they are concerned.

Okay, msolga is not around, but dear Leadfoot, and all atheists, are you going to get connected at all? tell me what is your concept of God, which is one of the gods you deny to exist.

Dear reader here, let us all sit back and await with bated breath to witness, whether Leadfoot or any atheists have the intellectual keen-ness and guts to tell us what is their concept of God, which is one of the gods they deny to exist, or they will take to the direction of evasiveness which means flight.
Krumple
 
  1  
Tue 27 Jun, 2017 06:06 pm
@Susmariosep,
Susmariosep wrote:

Dear Leadfoot, you are not connected, I am asking all atheists here, what is your concept of God, which is one of the gods you deny to exist.

Dear readers, that is what I see with atheists, they are always and totally into evasiveness, never saying anything they know to be true, factual, certain, and sure, at least with their reservation that insofar as they are concerned.

Okay, msolga is not around, but dear Leadfoot, and all atheists, are you going to get connected at all? tell me what is your concept of God, which is one of the gods you deny to exist.

Dear reader here, let us all sit back and await with bated breath to witness, whether Leadfoot or any atheists have the intellectual keen-ness and guts to tell us what is their concept of God, which is one of the gods they deny to exist, or they will take to the direction of evasiveness which means flight.



Susmariosep is another troll. Just arrived. She won't last long here. Pretending to engage but really is just trying to kick and provoke. Everyone can clearly see what you are. So you know where the door is.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Wed 28 Jun, 2017 06:44 am
@Susmariosep,
Quote:
dear Leadfoot, and all atheists, are you going to get connected at all? tell me what is your concept of God, which is one of the gods you deny to exist.

Krump apparently has your number (troll). If you think I'm an atheist, you are obviously the one 'not connected'.
0 Replies
 
Susmariosep
 
  1  
Wed 28 Jun, 2017 02:56 pm
Okay, let us get connected, I want to talk with atheists, and my first question is:

What is your concept of God, which is one of the gods you atheists deny to exist.
0 Replies
 
Susmariosep
 
  1  
Wed 28 Jun, 2017 05:24 pm
I am a theist who loves to find out how atheists think, so that I will know that they don't think as good as I think; that is why they deny God exists, but it is all due to poor thinking from the part of atheists.

So, dear atheists here, you will accuse me of being a troll? Hey, that is evasiveness.

See? precisely, that is poor thinking, because good thinking does not consist in evasiveness, and that is all I find atheists to be into, nothing but evasiveness.

Good thinking in the present case requires that you find out how your thinking is not as good or even better than my thinking, how?

How? Engage in thinking with me on how you got to become an atheist, and demand that I engage with you in thinking over how I got to become a theist.

You still think that I am a troll?

Okay, to be a good thinker and you successfully come up with the conclusion from your good thinking that I am a troll, and trolling is not allowed in this forum:

Please report me to the powers that be here in this forum, you owe that to your good thinking.
Krumple
 
  1  
Wed 28 Jun, 2017 05:52 pm
@Susmariosep,
Susmariosep wrote:

I am a theist who loves to find out how atheists think,


No you don't. If you did you would get their position right but you misrepresent the atheist position. You are a POE troll repeating yourself over and over expecting people to take you serious. You are a joke.

Susmariosep wrote:

so that I will know that they don't think as good as I think;


Your self delusion is getting in the way of how it really is.

Susmariosep wrote:

that is why they deny God exists, but it is all due to poor thinking from the part of atheists.


See this is why you are a troll. I have clearly explained that atheists don't "deny" a god exists. They simply don't have a belief that one does. There is a difference between deny and non-belief. You are just dishonest and trolling.

Susmariosep wrote:

So, dear atheists here, you will accuse me of being a troll? Hey, that is evasiveness.


No it's the truth. No one will actually engage you besides me because I will call out bullshit like you until you realize yep we have your number. We have seen it dozens of times on this forum. I've been here since 09, you don't think we have seen hundreds like you show up and pull this crap before fading a few weeks later?

Susmariosep wrote:

See? precisely, that is poor thinking, because good thinking does not consist in evasiveness, and that is all I find atheists to be into, nothing but evasiveness.


Delusional you are. Oh wait you are a Poe troll.

Susmariosep wrote:

Good thinking in the present case requires that you find out how your thinking is not as good or even better than my thinking, how?


You are a joke, I'm the only one who will engage you.

Susmariosep wrote:

How? Engage in thinking with me on how you got to become an atheist, and demand that I engage with you in thinking over how I got to become a theist.


Nope, I don't care why or how you try to justify believing something with no way to verify it.

Susmariosep wrote:

You still think that I am a troll?


I am 99.99% certain you are.

Susmariosep wrote:

Okay, to be a good thinker and you successfully come up with the conclusion from your good thinking that I am a troll, and trolling is not allowed in this forum:


They don't enforce it, it's just the people here have seen it so much they will just ignore you. They know you are not here for an actual discussion.

Susmariosep wrote:

Please report me to the powers that be here in this forum, you owe that to your good thinking.


Report you for thinking you are a genius and have an interesting angle that no one would figure it out? Why?
0 Replies
 
ECCE HOMO
 
  1  
Wed 28 Jun, 2017 08:19 pm
@msolga,
We believe in God because that is our obligation. We are born and destined to believe in God.
Krumple
 
  1  
Wed 28 Jun, 2017 08:20 pm
@ECCE HOMO,
ECCE HOMO wrote:

We believe in God because that is our obligation. We are born and destined to believe in God.


Nonsense.
Susmariosep
 
  1  
Wed 28 Jun, 2017 09:25 pm
Okay, Krumple, here is my concept of God, which is one of all gods you deny to exist but not with certainty (correct?) - okay, correction: They [atheists] simply don't have a belief that one does.

Here is my concept of God:
In concept God is first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

Now, tell me, what is your concept of God, which is among the gods you deny to exist but not with certainty, err, you simply don't have a belief that God does.


What about that you deny you exist; no, that is not your position, your position is that you cannot prove that you exist, or that you simply don't have a belief that you do exist.

So, let's be precise, about your existence, you cannot prove you exist or you just simply don't have a belief you exist?

I will not call you a troll, but a hairsplitter.

And you are getting extremely irked, err, that is not so, you simply just lack a belief in your being extremely irked.
TomTomBinks
 
  1  
Wed 28 Jun, 2017 10:07 pm
@Susmariosep,
Quote:
Here is my concept of God:
In concept God is first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

Great. This is your concept. Now prove you are right.
You ignored my challenge on another thread, let's see if you have the courage to demonstrate your certainty with reason and logic here.
I've been reading your nonsense and find no substance in your drivel.
0 Replies
 
 

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