4
   

is not water more than just its bonds ?

 
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 01:56 am
@dadpad,
dadpad wrote:

Look at surface tension.



sure
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 02:01 am
@north,
Oh, cool, you have read it now.

You're asking the right question. Hmmm. Wondering how best to explain it.

If you look at a stone it's just a stone, but if you step back it might be part of an avalanche, or a beach, or a gravel driveway. A single unit does not necessarily tell you much about the behaviour of lots of those units in large numbers.

The states of matter are only observable at the macro level, at the individual atomic level they are meaningless. You can't melt an atom or boil it. It is the base unit of matter, indivisible except in extreme cases - and even then it won't melt or boil, it can only split into subatomic particles or convert its mass into energy.

I'm hoping someone else can do a better job than me.

hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 02:02 am
@north,
I thought so, such are the perils of asymmetic communication Wink
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 02:11 am
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:

I thought so, such are the perils of asymmetic communication Wink


if you think so
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 02:16 am
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:

Oh, cool, you have read it now.

You're asking the right question. Hmmm. Wondering how best to explain it.

If you look at a stone it's just a stone, but if you step back it might be part of an avalanche, or a beach, or a gravel driveway. A single unit does not necessarily tell you much about the behaviour of lots of those units in large numbers.

The states of matter are only observable at the macro level, at the individual atomic level they are meaningless. You can't melt an atom or boil it. It is the base unit of matter, indivisible except in extreme cases - and even then it won't melt or boil, it can only split into subatomic particles or convert its mass into energy.

I'm hoping someone else can do a better job than me.



yes I understand the limits of our knowledge , at the moment

but what if you could take a single atom of hydrogen or oxygen down to its liquid form temp. as an experiment

if possible , actually I don't understand why not , I'm 99.999999 % sure you will find that a single atom will produce a liquid
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 02:37 am
@north,
Sorry North that's completely wrong. A single atom is a single atom.

Temperature itself has no meaning at the atomic level - did you know that temperature is merely a measure of the average kinetic energy levels of a large group of atomic particles? (be they a christmas turkey, a baby's mouth, or the air in your kitchen).

The four states of matter are all byproducts of the kinetic energy levels of individual atoms/molecules.
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 02:42 am
@hingehead,

Quote:
Sorry North that's completely wrong. A single atom is a single atom.


of course

Quote:
Temperature itself has no meaning at the atomic level - did you know that temperature is merely a measure of the average kinetic energy levels of a large group of atomic particles? (be they a christmas turkey, a baby's mouth, or the air in your kitchen).


yes but reminded

so the less kinetic energy , hydrogen and oxygen become a liquid



hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 02:51 am
@north,
Quote:
so the less kinetic energy , hydrogen and oxygen become a liquid


Yes, large groups of molecules and/or atoms become appear as different states of matter depending on their average level of kinetic energy.

When the atoms/molecules have no kinetic energy they are said to be at 'absolute zero' or zero degrees kelvin. As you add kinetic energy the atoms/molecules vibrate and temperature rises. The more energy the larger the vibration until the vibration manifests itself as random movement from a base position (this is the melting point and you get a liquid).

If you keep increasing the energy levels the random movement gets wilder and creates space between the particles (i.e the fluid becomes compressible - this is boiling point and we have a gas) - keep going and you get the fourth state, plasma, where the particles are so energised they are stripped of their electrons.

I wish ebrown was here - he was actually a physics teacher and could do a better job of explaining this than me.
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 03:07 am
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:

Quote:
so the less kinetic energy , hydrogen and oxygen become a liquid


Yes, large groups of molecules and/or atoms become appear as different states of matter depending on their average level of kinetic energy.

When the atoms/molecules have no kinetic energy they are said to be at 'absolute zero' or zero degrees kelvin. As you add kinetic energy the atoms/molecules vibrate and temperature rises. The more energy the larger the vibration until the vibration manifests itself as random movement from a base position (this is the melting point and you get a liquid).

If you keep increasing the energy levels the random movement gets wilder and creates space between the particles (i.e the fluid becomes compressible - this is boiling point and we have a gas) - keep going and you get the fourth state, plasma, where the particles are so energised they are stripped of their electrons.

I wish ebrown was here - he was actually a physics teacher and could do a better job of explaining this than me.


perhaps , but I understand what your saying

the thing is though is still , what is this liquid

if I collect a mass , physical atoms , together , then usually , I end up with a solid

but with hydrogen and oxygen atoms together to form a molecule , I get a room temp. liquid

why ?

since the kinetic energy of both types of atoms has increased

but it is in the lower temp. that the individual atom produces a liquid

at lower kinetic energy state

there is a contradiction , you see
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 03:30 am
@north,
Quote:
if I collect a mass , physical atoms , together , then usually , I end up with a solid


Not necessarily - what atoms are you collecting? If there helium or flourine or mercury you won't have a solid.

Quote:


but with hydrogen and oxygen atoms together to form a molecule , I get a room temp. liquid

why ?

Because adding a two oxygen atoms to a hydrogen atom gives you a molecule with properties very different to the constituent atoms. Sodium and chlorine are poisonous individual but together they are salt. Carbon, Hydrogen and Nitrogen are the basis of the amino acids on which life is based - they are also the constituents of cyanide. Chemistry is the study of these differences.


Quote:

since the kinetic energy of both types of atoms has increased

but it is in the lower temp. that the individual atom produces a liquid

at lower kinetic energy state

there is a contradiction , you see


The H2O molecule is a very different beast to it's atomic constituents. Oxygen is extremely reactive, as is hydrogen. Ionic hydrogen is very keen to get an electron and ionic oxygen is very keen to share two, thus the very tight chemical bond between them. A water molecule is extremely stable, free hydrogen and oxygen can't help but bind. Even though they individually may have kinetic energy levels that make them gases the act of binding releases energy (in effect you are burning hydrogen to create its oxide) and creating strong polar attractions. The loss of energy and the increased attraction will, at room temperature, create liquid water.
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 03:52 am

Quote:
The H2O molecule is a very different beast to it's atomic constituents. Oxygen is extremely reactive, as is hydrogen. Ionic hydrogen is very keen to get an electron and ionic oxygen is very keen to share two, thus the very tight chemical bond between them. A water molecule is extremely stable, free hydrogen and oxygen can't help but bind. Even though they individually may have kinetic energy levels that make them gases the act of binding releases energy (in effect you are burning hydrogen to create its oxide) and creating strong polar attractions. The loss of energy and the increased attraction will, at room temperature, create liquid water.


so the release of kinetic energy is by heat

to your last

the loss of energy , and increased attraction as a result does create a liquid but this explaination , does not still explain a liquid state

there is even no explanation of why extremely low energy state , should naturally produce a liquid state of this element , H or O

hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 05:07 am
@north,
Quote:
so the release of kinetic energy is by heat

Yes - Hydrogen combining with oxygen is an exothermic reaction.
Quote:

to your last

the loss of energy , and increased attraction as a result does create a liquid but this explaination , does not still explain a liquid state


I think the problem is you don't really understand what a liquid is - but I'm only guessing.

Quote:

there is even no explanation of why extremely low energy state , should naturally produce a liquid state of this element , H or O


I'm not sure why but your questions don't always make sense to me. Who said anything about extremely low energy states? And what do you mean by 'this element'? Water? Water isn't an element.

Sadly I don't think you understand the basics enough for my explanations to help you - and/or my explanations don't make much sense to you - I'm sorry for that.
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 05:32 am
@north,
You're going to have to state which type of bonding makes water unique; hydrogen bonding is the correct answer. It is the cause of ice floating, and the relatively high boiling point of water.
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Nov, 2010 09:43 pm
Quote:


there is even no explanation of why extremely low energy state , should naturally produce a liquid state of this element , H or O


Quote:
I'm not sure why but your questions don't always make sense to me. Who said anything about extremely low energy states? And what do you mean by 'this element'? Water? Water isn't an element.


I'm not talking about water here

what I am talking about is both elements of H and O

you have both these elements at very low temperatures creating a liquid form

but each atom of each element is a physical thing at its core , nucleous

so we have physical atoms , or entities creating a liquid rather than say a dense physical object ,like for example iron , the closer atoms , the more physical , the more solid the iron becomes , hence steel , the colder

give heat , liquid

both H and O do the opposite

why
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Nov, 2010 10:29 pm

when I look through my chemistry text all I get is about the bonding whether covalent or the geometry of H2O , not anthing about why a liquid comes about

look I KNOW that bonding is important between each of H and O atoms

but once the bonding takes place in any form now what ?

why a liquid and at room temperature ? when combined ?

the bonding is not the whole understanding of water but a begining
0 Replies
 
 

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