4
   

is not water more than just its bonds ?

 
 
north
 
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 04:32 pm
sure you need H2O for water to manifest

but why does this molecule produce a liquid when neither produce a liquid form unless at very cold temps. ( -260 to -240 C approximately ) , something else must be going on

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Type: Discussion • Score: 4 • Views: 1,891 • Replies: 34
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Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 04:37 pm
@north,
Yeah, there's a magic spell that makes it happen - the Keh Mist Terry. It's an offshoot of the earlier, secret cabalistic practice known as Fizz Icks.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
north
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 05:57 pm

any better answer
djjd62
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 05:58 pm
@north,
i doubt it
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 06:07 pm
@north,
north wrote:


any better answer


The answer matched the seriousness of the question itself. Garbage In gets Garbage Out every time.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 06:59 pm
@north,
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_water_is_liquid_at_room_temperature
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 10:36 pm
@hingehead,


sorry no answer here , been there done that , I've asked this question for several yrs , my understanding of water has not been advanced
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 10:47 pm

since the atom has a physical core , putting 3 physical atoms together does equate to a liquid

despite the type of bonding that takes place between the atoms

the bonds are important , don't get me wrong , but the liquid consequence of the bonds is not fully explained
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 10:51 pm
@north,
Sodium and chlorine are both deadly poisons but combined we put them on our chips and in almost everything we cook. I think there's something more going on.
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 10:55 pm
@north,
How about
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_determines_the_boiling_point_of_a_substance
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 10:59 pm
@north,
And this
Quote:
Water is the chemical substance with chemical formula H2O: one molecule of water has two hydrogen atoms covalently bonded to a single oxygen atom.[6] Water is a tasteless, odorless liquid at ambient temperature and pressure, and appears colorless in small quantities, although it has its own intrinsic very light blue hue. Ice also appears colorless, and water vapor is essentially invisible as a gas.[1] Water is primarily a liquid under standard conditions, which is not predicted from its relationship to other analogous hydrides of the oxygen family in the periodic table, which are gases such as hydrogen sulfide. Also the elements surrounding oxygen in the periodic table, nitrogen, fluorine, phosphorus, sulfur and chlorine, all combine with hydrogen to produce gases under standard conditions. The reason that water forms a liquid is that oxygen is more electronegative than all of these elements with the exception of fluorine. Oxygen attracts electrons much more strongly than hydrogen, resulting in a net positive charge on the hydrogen atoms, and a net negative charge on the oxygen atom. The presence of a charge on each of these atoms gives each water molecule a net dipole moment. Electrical attraction between water molecules due to this dipole pulls individual molecules closer together, making it more difficult to separate the molecules and therefore raising the boiling point. This attraction is known as hydrogen bonding. The molecules of water are constantly moving in relation to each other, and the hydrogen bonds are continually breaking and reforming at timescales faster than 200 femtoseconds.[7] However, this bond is strong enough to create many of the peculiar properties of water described in this article, such as the those that make it integral to life. Water can be described as a polar liquid that slightly dissociates disproportionately into the hydronium ion (H3O+(aq)) and an associated hydroxide ion (OH−(aq)).
2 H2O (l) H3O+ (aq) + OH− (aq)
The dissociation constant for this dissociation is commonly symbolized as Kw and has a value of about 10−14 at 25 °C; see "Water (data page)" and "Self-ionization of water" for more information.


Source
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 10:59 pm
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:

Sodium and chlorine are both deadly poisons but combined we put them on our chips and in almost everything we cook. I think there's something more going on.



there is
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 11:00 pm
@hingehead,


ah...no
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 11:06 pm
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:

And this
Quote:
Water is the chemical substance with chemical formula H2O: one molecule of water has two hydrogen atoms covalently bonded to a single oxygen atom.[6] Water is a tasteless, odorless liquid at ambient temperature and pressure, and appears colorless in small quantities, although it has its own intrinsic very light blue hue. Ice also appears colorless, and water vapor is essentially invisible as a gas.[1] Water is primarily a liquid under standard conditions, which is not predicted from its relationship to other analogous hydrides of the oxygen family in the periodic table, which are gases such as hydrogen sulfide. Also the elements surrounding oxygen in the periodic table, nitrogen, fluorine, phosphorus, sulfur and chlorine, all combine with hydrogen to produce gases under standard conditions. The reason that water forms a liquid is that oxygen is more electronegative than all of these elements with the exception of fluorine. Oxygen attracts electrons much more strongly than hydrogen, resulting in a net positive charge on the hydrogen atoms, and a net negative charge on the oxygen atom. The presence of a charge on each of these atoms gives each water molecule a net dipole moment. Electrical attraction between water molecules due to this dipole pulls individual molecules closer together, making it more difficult to separate the molecules and therefore raising the boiling point. This attraction is known as hydrogen bonding. The molecules of water are constantly moving in relation to each other, and the hydrogen bonds are continually breaking and reforming at timescales faster than 200 femtoseconds.[7] However, this bond is strong enough to create many of the peculiar properties of water described in this article, such as the those that make it integral to life. Water can be described as a polar liquid that slightly dissociates disproportionately into the hydronium ion (H3O+(aq)) and an associated hydroxide ion (OH−(aq)).
2 H2O (l) H3O+ (aq) + OH− (aq)
The dissociation constant for this dissociation is commonly symbolized as Kw and has a value of about 10−14 at 25 °C; see "Water (data page)" and "Self-ionization of water" for more information.


Source


bonds again

picture the water molecule , now picture the interaction of the atoms within the water molecule , they attract , complex , but they attract

as you observe where is the liquid ?
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 01:39 am
@north,
north wrote:
bonds again

picture the water molecule , now picture the interaction of the atoms within the water molecule , they attract , complex , but they attract

as you observe where is the liquid
?


Sorry North, you are either not reading or not understanding some basic molecular physics.

If I've interpreted correctly what you are saying (in the quote that I have bolded) you are expecting to be able to recognise that something is a liquid from observing one molecule? Liquidity (or any other state of matter) is not a property of single molecules, it is only observable when extremely large numbers of molecules are grouped together and it is a description of their motion in relation to each other. In solids the molecules vibrate but stay in approximately the same position. Liquids are non-compressible fluids the molecules move around more freely but take the shape of their container. Gases are compressible fluids, molecules are sufficiently energised to expand to fill a container.

Apologies if I've misinterpreted what you've said.

What's holding the water molecules close enough together to appear on the macro level as a liquid is not just about the interactions between atoms in a molecule - it is also about the polar attraction of the molecules themselves to each other. The molecule is asymmetric and the O end (red below) is negatively charged and attracts the positively charged hydrogen ends of other water molecules which in turn attract the oxygen ends of other water molecules ad infinitum.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Water_molecule_3D.svg/106px-Water_molecule_3D.svg.png

north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 01:40 am

Quote:
picture the water molecule , now picture the interaction of the atoms within the water molecule , they attract , complex , but they attract


as you observe where is the liquid ?

all I see is sparks , static electricity etc . no form of liquid
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 01:45 am
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:

north wrote:
bonds again

picture the water molecule , now picture the interaction of the atoms within the water molecule , they attract , complex , but they attract

as you observe where is the liquid
?


Sorry North, you are either not reading or not understanding some basic molecular physics.

If I've interpreted correctly what you are saying (in the quote that I have bolded) you are expecting to be able to recognise that something is a liquid from observing one molecule? Liquidity (or any other state of matter) is not a property of single molecules, it is only observable when extremely large numbers of molecules are grouped together and it is a description of their motion in relation to each other. In solids the molecules vibrate but stay in approximately the same position. Liquids are non-compressible fluids the molecules move around more freely but take the shape of their container. Gases are compressible fluids, molecules are sufficiently energised to expand to fill a container.

Apologies if I've misinterpreted what you've said.

What's holding the water molecules close enough together to appear on the macro level as a liquid is not just about the interactions between atoms in a molecule - it is also about the polar attraction of the molecules themselves to each other. The molecule is asymmetric and the O end (red below) is negatively charged and attracts the positively charged hydrogen ends of other water molecules which in turn attract the oxygen ends of other water molecules ad infinitum.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Water_molecule_3D.svg/106px-Water_molecule_3D.svg.png




thats the thing , water is only manifested when the group gets large enough

but why , what difference does it make how large the group is

we still have the problem of three physical atoms producing a liquid
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 01:52 am
@north,
Ah, dude, you are quoting yourself.

I'm hoping you read my last post since this post.
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 01:53 am
Look at surface tension.



north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 01:55 am
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:

Ah, dude, you are quoting yourself.


because I can't edit after a certain amount of time

Quote:
I'm hoping you read my last post since this post.


did
 

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