7
   

Iraq war logs: secret files show how US ignored torture

 
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 09:48 am
@Foofie,
Quote:

How could it have "occurred in our names"?


The invasion of Iraq & the conflict & occupation which followed was as a result of the decisions of the elected governments which represent us.

I don't believe my (Australian) government acted in accordance with my beliefs, either. But it was still my government that involved us in that war despite the clear wishes of the Australian people.

The US has received a large share of the "blame" for the Iraq war because the US was the instigator. Of course, other countries allied themselves with the US.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 09:52 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
Now that is not intellectually honest.


You actually have the gall to say this, Foofie.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 09:55 am
@msolga,
(Sorry, I worded that post poorly. But I hope my meaning is clear enough. It's very late & I should go to bed.)
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 10:54 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
I can't help but notice the similarities between this period and the post-WW1 period, in terms of information about the horrors of war and how they get out.


It was a war that was launched against Hitler and Germany but what Hitler did to cause that wasn't a war. His was a series of illegal invasions of sovereign nations. His was a series of war crimes for which many Germans were held to account.

There's no difference here, Cy. Stop "dignifying" what the USA and its crony countries have done by suggesting either Iraq or Afghanistan was a war. Call it what it unmistakably was and is.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 10:59 am
@JTT,
The reference was to WW1, not WW2, JTT.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 11:05 am
@msolga,
That it was, MsO, but the overall point is still a valid one.

I retract my specific comments to Cycloptichorn.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 11:14 am
@JTT,
No problem.
Just being helpful. Wink
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 12:10 pm
All thanks to GW Bush who approved torture and killing of more than 100,000 innocent Iraqis. All his conservative supporters belong in the gulag.

And they want conservatives to take over our government on November 2?



JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 12:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Many too, that are not so conservative, CI. Way too much silence from way too broad a spectrum.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 07:03 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Quote:

How could it have "occurred in our names"?


The invasion of Iraq & the conflict & occupation which followed was as a result of the decisions of the elected governments which represent us.

I don't believe my (Australian) government acted in accordance with my beliefs, either. But it was still my government that involved us in that war despite the clear wishes of the Australian people.

The US has received a large share of the "blame" for the Iraq war because the US was the instigator. Of course, other countries allied themselves with the US.


What ever happened to the aboriginal people that first inhabited Australia? Where they appreciative of the invasion of the British and the folk that the British sent there. My point is, people in glass houses should not throw stones, even if centuries have past.
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 07:09 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

It was a war that was launched against Hitler and Germany but what Hitler did to cause that wasn't a war. His was a series of illegal invasions of sovereign nations. His was a series of war crimes for which many Germans were held to account.



Ho, ho, ho. Most of the Nazis that were put in prison from the Nuremburg trials were out in a few years. The correct statement is that FEW GERMANS WERE HELD TO ACCOUNT. And, why not? Few cared for what they did, and the need to contain the Soviets were bigger fish to fry, so to speak.

Eidelweiss, eidelweiss, la, la, la, la, la, la, la.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 07:16 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie, you are right to express concern about the welfare of aboriginal Australians. Many Australians share your concern. And for good reason. But that is not the subject of this thread & I really don't want to create a digression, if that's OK with you.

Quote:
My point is, people in glass houses should not throw stones, even if centuries have past.


If you had read my earlier comments here, say nothing of my comments about the Iraq invasion on other, older threads, you would know that my criticism is not only directed at the US, but also at my own (Australian) government, plus the rest, for involving us in the conflict for no good reason.
I firmly believe that the invasion the invasion of Iraq was wrong, say nothing of a war crime. I was opposed to the invasion from day one. Before day one, actually, when we all knew it was going to happen. I don't see my position as some morally superior "glass house" one. Many, many people from many other countries also share that view.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 07:26 pm
@msolga,
Well, if we all were privy to what the heads of state know, then maybe we could make a correct determination. Since I am not privy, I do not stand in judgement.
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 07:27 pm
@msolga,
Breaking News Alert
The New York Times
Sat, October 23, 2010 -- 1:23 PM ET
-----

Use of Contractors Added to Chaos of Iraq War, Trove of Documents Shows

A huge archive of documents from the Iraq war, released by
WikiLeaks, shows a multitude of shortcomings with the
military's reliance on private contractors. The contractors
lacked coordination with coalition forces and often shot with
little discrimination -- and few if any consequences -- at
unarmed Iraqi civilians, Iraqi security forces, American
troops and even other contractors, stirring public outrage.

The documents also portray the long history of tensions
between Kurds and Arabs in the north of Iraq and reveal the
fears of some American units about what might happen after
American troops leave the country by the end of 2011.

Facing denunciations from governments for the release of the
classified documents, the founder of WikiLeaks, Julian
Assange, is now finding some of his own comrades abandoning
him for what they see as erratic and imperious behavior.

Read More:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/world/war-logs.html?emc=na
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 07:37 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
Well, if we all were privy to what the heads of state know, then maybe we could make a correct determination. Since I am not privy, I do not stand in judgement.


At the time we were told the invasion was about weapons of mass destruction, Foofie. Which was proved to be untrue. That is what we were told was the reason for the invasion. The responsible heads of states did not listen to millions of people, all over the planet, who clearly did not want to see Iraq (or Baghdad at first) "shocked & awed". I think those heads of state should be held accountable for their decision to invade, for what amounts to a war crime. I think we have every right, a responsibility even, to criticize those heads of state for what occurred in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 07:40 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
Well, if we all were privy to what the heads of state know, then maybe we could make a correct determination. Since I am not privy, I do not stand in judgement.


You're being disingenuous again, Foofie. Do you want me to show you the videos of Rice and Powell telling how Saddam was no threat whatsoever roughly six months before 9/11, that he was fully contained and that he had not built up anything that would threaten the US, he couldn't even threaten his neighbors.

Do you want to hear from the inspectors who were in Iraq who were saying that there was no indication of any WMDs?

Do you remember how Colin Powell stated that the lies he told at the UN marked the saddest day of his life? Sad that he didn't have the moral base to prevent the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocents.

Actually, you've gone far beyond disingenuous to outright lying just so to don't have to admit to US war crimes. Despicable, truly deeply despicable.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 07:44 pm
From today's Guardian (UK):

Quote:
Wikileaks Iraq war logs: every death mapped

The Wikileaks Iraq war logs provide us with a unique picture of every death in Iraq. These are those events mapped using Google Fusion tables


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/datablog/interactive/2010/oct/23/wikileaks-iraq-deaths-map
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 07:46 pm
@dlowan,
Thanks, Deb.
(Taking a look now)

Quote:
Use of Contractors Added to Chaos of Iraq War, Trove of Documents Shows
..
Read More:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/world/war-logs.html?emc=na
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 07:59 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

msolga wrote:

Quote:

How could it have "occurred in our names"?


The invasion of Iraq & the conflict & occupation which followed was as a result of the decisions of the elected governments which represent us.

I don't believe my (Australian) government acted in accordance with my beliefs, either. But it was still my government that involved us in that war despite the clear wishes of the Australian people.

The US has received a large share of the "blame" for the Iraq war because the US was the instigator. Of course, other countries allied themselves with the US.


What ever happened to the aboriginal people that first inhabited Australia? Where they appreciative of the invasion of the British and the folk that the British sent there. My point is, people in glass houses should not throw stones, even if centuries have past.



What happened to the aboriginal people who first inhabited America?

Were they appreciative of the invasion of the British and the folk that the British sent there?


My point is we all live in glass houses.

You appear to suggest that this means that we can never comment upon each other's behavior?

Msolga has repeatedly acknowledged that she is no less critical of the Australian and British governments....as am I....however, this recent series of leaks of documents relates to the USA and are about US behaviour and policy.







0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 08:00 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Thanks, Deb.
(Taking a look now)

Quote:
Use of Contractors Added to Chaos of Iraq War, Trove of Documents Shows
..
Read More:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/world/war-logs.html?emc=na




You and I with our recent government behaviour history know all about contracting out and its perils, eh?
 

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