17
   

What Does it Take to Justify Violence?

 
 
hamilton
 
  0  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 06:09 am
to kill one to save many is to kill many to save one...
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 07:46 am
@failures art,
The way I see it, this is simple.
If a boulder comes rolling towards me I will get out of the way. If I can't get out of the way I will try to stop or break the boulder before it can injure me, by any means I can.
If the boulder is a person instead, I don't see how that makes a difference.

But I would never condone the use of violence or the threat of violence to force someone to do as I want.
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 08:00 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

The way I see it, this is simple.
If a boulder comes rolling towards me I will get out of the way. If I can't get out of the way I will try to stop or break the boulder before it can injure me, by any means I can.
If the boulder is a person instead, I don't see how that makes a difference.

But I would never condone the use of violence or the threat of violence to force someone to do as I want.

why not catch the boulder
(well, if you can beak it...)
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 08:25 am
@hamilton,
Well, I would most likely not have anything handy that could break the boulder, but if I did, I would not hesitate to use it. And that holds true if it's a person coming at me rather than a "dead object".
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 10:00 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Well, I would most likely not have anything handy that could break the boulder, but if I did, I would not hesitate to use it. And that holds true if it's a person coming at me rather than a "dead object".
The best way to stop violence is not with violence, but is to stop the causes of violence, and these are well known... The thing is, that after the fact , when people have been brutalized and see no sense in acting other than as brutes, then there is no choice but to pen them up, or kill them...

If this seems like a justification for violence, it is not... I justify doing all that is necessary to keep children from growing into mindless brutes... I hate to hear people say: If some one did such and such to me or my family I would kill them... We all know that, and we all know there are situations which out of shock demand vengeance and justice and even violence... It is wrong to consider such events in advance, and to prepare yourself for violence, and justify before the fact what can only be accepted as natural... When adults talk in such a fashion before children, the children accept that violence is often justified, but the justice of an act should be considered after the act, and people should do all in their power to be just, to have the quality of justice in their character, and be considerate of all people and all circumstances... The last resort: Violence; should always remain the last resort in people's lives and in their minds...
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 07:13 pm
a fair warning to stop before you kick their ass.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2011 01:28 am
@hamilton,
hamilton wrote:
a fair warning to stop before you kick their ass.
Do thay all share one ass ?
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2011 06:06 am
@OmSigDAVID,
maybe their a symese twin.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2011 09:18 am
@Fido,
Well, the times I am confronted with someone who has a mind to subject me to violence it is most often because of jealousy, sometimes because the woman they like doesn't like them and gives me more attention. Not necessarily that kind of attention, but that doesn't matter to an insecure drunk. Am I obliged to stay away from my friends just because someone might become jealous? No. Neither am I obliged to explain anything to these idiots. But I am within my rights to put them in their place should they try to take their frustration out on me.
But even though this has happened a few times, I have never punched someone or done anything but defend myself, usually just by getting out of the way. But I am not inclined to block and evade forever. If someone cannot be persuaded to stop I am within my rights to stop them, and I do not feel any moral reservations towards doing so. Legally speaking I could break their leg after they throw the first punch, but that kind of behavior tends to create lasting conflicts and enemies, and I am interested in neither.
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 11:47 am
@Cyracuz,
thats a good way to lead your life...
0 Replies
 
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 11:48 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Well, I would most likely not have anything handy that could break the boulder, but if I did, I would not hesitate to use it. And that holds true if it's a person coming at me rather than a "dead object".
so your saying that if someone attacks you, then you view them as nonhuman?
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 03:05 pm
@hamilton,
No, thats not what I am saying.
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 04:59 pm
@Cyracuz,
could you perhaps explain...?
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 05:34 pm
@Cyracuz,
I agree, Cyracuz. Violence is only to be used as an absolutely last resort. The problem is that sometimes one is not afforded the time to determine if the situtation represents a last resort. The problem then becomes that of preventing the injury or death of both yourself and your assailant.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Jun, 2011 03:35 am
@hamilton,
It is already explained. Just read less into it, and you will probably get it. Wink

On a sidenote...
I once pressed charges against a person for violence. The woman at the police station asked me if he had hit me. I said, no he didn't hit me, but he held my arms behind my back and slammed me into walls.
She said that if he didn't hit me it wasn't violence.
So I asked her if it would be violence if I picked up a rock and slammed it into her face. She said yes.
But according to you, I said, it would not be violence if I took you by the neck and slammed your face against a rock... She had no reply, which shows that she was at least moderately intelligent. Still, my case was dismissed, despite the bruises and injuries I had.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Jun, 2011 03:39 am
@JLNobody,
Yes, an absolutely last resort. The way I see it, if a conflict comes to the point where violence is likely to happen, everyone has already failed. But we are allowed to defend ourselves, at least here in Norway, and if someone gets injured or killed as a result of forcing someone to have to defend themselves, it is generally regarded as their own fault, same as if someone kills themselves driving after having too much to drink.
But even if someone were to die by my action on self defense, and even if I weren't guilty of any punishable crime as a result, I think it would be a weight on my conscience that I'd rather do without.
0 Replies
 
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Jun, 2011 06:05 am
@Cyracuz,
that sucks... i guess thats where this topic comes from?
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Jun, 2011 07:50 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Well, the times I am confronted with someone who has a mind to subject me to violence it is most often because of jealousy, sometimes because the woman they like doesn't like them and gives me more attention. Not necessarily that kind of attention, but that doesn't matter to an insecure drunk. Am I obliged to stay away from my friends just because someone might become jealous? No. Neither am I obliged to explain anything to these idiots. But I am within my rights to put them in their place should they try to take their frustration out on me.
But even though this has happened a few times, I have never punched someone or done anything but defend myself, usually just by getting out of the way. But I am not inclined to block and evade forever. If someone cannot be persuaded to stop I am within my rights to stop them, and I do not feel any moral reservations towards doing so. Legally speaking I could break their leg after they throw the first punch, but that kind of behavior tends to create lasting conflicts and enemies, and I am interested in neither.

I try to stay fit, do a little moi tai; but I long ago found out that the best was to avoid violence is to avoid those places violence are common to...

In a sense, rights has nothing to do with it... It is possible to hurt people, and some times to kill them and have legal right on your side... But the point is not what we can legally do, but morally live with, and no moral person easily accepts the injury of another....

Fate has us injured, diseased, and some day dead... Every evil that can befall a person may strike you... If you are inclined to accept either fate, or God then it is best to not deserve all that you will suffer... It is uncommon for youth to feel this way... They are struck with the unfairness of life, and wish to deserve the injury they know awaits them; but having been there, felt that injury and done that injury and deserved in turn worse injury I would rather not have the question before my existential mind... Kierkaguard said: In comparison with God man suffers as guilty... Been awhile... I don't know if I got the phrase correct or the name... But existentials aside; we must some day ask for justice, and this is best and most easily done if we have always done justice... Are you in part responsible for the trouble that finds you??? Then make trouble search you up, and perhaps it never will come looking...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Jun, 2011 07:53 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

It is already explained. Just read less into it, and you will probably get it. Wink

On a sidenote...
I once pressed charges against a person for violence. The woman at the police station asked me if he had hit me. I said, no he didn't hit me, but he held my arms behind my back and slammed me into walls.
She said that if he didn't hit me it wasn't violence.
So I asked her if it would be violence if I picked up a rock and slammed it into her face. She said yes.
But according to you, I said, it would not be violence if I took you by the neck and slammed your face against a rock... She had no reply, which shows that she was at least moderately intelligent. Still, my case was dismissed, despite the bruises and injuries I had.
Some one should have asked her if she was tricked into bed with a lie, if it was not rape... Sex without love is violence... Too often it is two people doing violence to themselves and using another person for aim; but it is violence, meant to numb people to the terrible pain we must endure to live in this modern society that promises so much, takes so much, and delivers so little...

It is a mistake to believe that violence is about time or injury... Violence is about intent, and it is often played out in slow motion with no one able to stop what has once been started... People know how Greek Tragedies end, and there is often a premonition that people determined upon their demise brush aside... It does not mean their ends are not violent, that the whole affair is not violent long before the actors step onto the stage...If your food is robbed from some baby's mouth, and he dies so peacefully too tired of life to even cry, is his death not violence??? The deaths we cause are planned, methodical, and mechanical... Does that mean the deaths we make are not violence, and that in the process we do not do violence to truth and justice and honor??? We are killing the world, and in the dreams of some they will either escape to heaven or outer space to find some new worlds to destroy, but the fact is that we are doing violence all the time and everywhere for our good times... What if the fact is only obvious after we die... Does that mean our lives were other than madness marked by violence and pain???
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Jun, 2011 08:15 am
@Fido,
I think you are using the term violence in a completely different way than I am.
Theft is not violence, though it is equally wrong in my opinion. If you steal the food so someone starves to death, you have not done violence, but that doesn't mean that what you did was ok. Carry your line of thinking to the extremes, and you can say that just because you got that job you wanted, many other people are not able to eat as well as they could have if they got the job instead of you, they may not be able to pay their bills and may end up without a home. Does that mean you committed an act of violence against them by accepting the job you were offered?
 

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