10
   

Can you prove to your self that you exist

 
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2010 03:38 pm
Can I prove to myself that I exist? No, but I don't feel the need to.
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 11:44 pm


Quote:
Can you prove to your self that you exist ?


go without air for ten minutes , somewhere before the 10 minutes elapsed you will know
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 05:38 am
@ikurwa89,
Quote:
How would one go about proving his own existence WITHOUT using any of his/her sense organs.


Proof of this is about as easy to produce as proof that there exists a god.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 08:32 am
@ikurwa89,
If you are the measure, on the meaning of proof and the concept of your existence, whatever you might think of it, its as real as you can conceive real...or just to say, that you can´t get more real then the real you can get... which of course is a tautology nevertheless worth thinking about, given what was being debated in this thread...
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 08:39 am
@ikurwa89,
ikurwa89 wrote:

...It just has to be something that will exist regardless of myself, which is me.


What am I missing here?
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 08:54 am
@ikurwa89,
ikurwa89 wrote:

I understand Descartes argument, but what his suggesting is the mind i.e thoughts are existing not thy self.

So If I stop producing thoughts or think about anything then I won't exist.. It's like I only exist when I think...

It's doesn't establish the point of proving that you actually exist OBJECTIVELY in the world without the use of any sensory organs.

My main argument was sensory organs are falliable, so things might not appear the way they are.. My thoughts are being produced through an organ which is ultimately unreliable..

The "I think, therefore I am" doesn't do well in establishing you exist objectively.




Whether you exist in the World that exists in you, or you simply exist in a World, is n´t really of much relevance to answer the question of your existence at all, given what is asked cannot actually go beyond your own internal concept of what exist is meant to address...the physical external world will simply be your internal concept of what physical external world means resulting that what is asked with external actually keeps addressing the internal idea of external...it might well even be argued that concepts of external and internal are ultimately useful not fully understood ideas...

...of course this actually has a huge impact on what the idea of "I" really means, given "I" may well be the entire reality converged in one point of space time where you emerge as a separate conscious entity with a specific particular perspective upon the world given your location and the system of relations that that very same locality makes emerge from your standing point when looking at the Whole...

...nevertheless "you" keep on existing as much as existence can be perceived and conceptualized...
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 05:20 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
What else? (as you would say when you're speaking english)

Happy End of November, Genius Dude!
Dasein
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 06:14 pm
@ikurwa89,
ikurwa89 wrote:

How would one go about proving his own existence WITHOUT using any of his/her sense organs.

For those who will say "I think therefore I am", thoughts are produced through a sense organ which is ultimately fallible.

I don't want the mind to exist, I want thy self to exist.

ikurwa89;

What follows is something I posted in another thread. Given your original question I thought it would be approriate to post it here because it addresses "proving to your 'self' that you exist".

In terms of the measurable, definable, world, and the 'they', 'death' is interpreted as that which happens at the end of 'life'. Another word we use for the end of life is 'demise'.

For the purpose of this conversation I will use 'death' (demise) when I am speaking about what happens in the measurable, definable, world and I will use 'death' (Be-ing) when I am speaking of Be-ing.

Be aware, when people speak of 'death' they are most likely speaking about 'demise'. You can't count on them to make the distinction for you. Humans Be-ing readily interchange (confuse) the two words when they come face-to-face with their own mortality and are meaning 'demise' (what happens to a physical body, plant, animal, or man).

Let's clear up the matter of 'demise' first and be done with it. It is rather simple. 'Birth' and 'death' (demise) are two sides of the same coin. When you are 'born', 'death' (demise) is inevitable and nobody can take it away from you or do it for you. It is the only certain/uncertain certainty you have. Just about everything you do between 'birth' and 'death' (demise) is an avoidance of 'death' (demise).

Let me be very clear here. 'Death' (demise) is to be avoided at all cost.

Monuments (headstones, statues, buildings) are an attempt to extend 'living' past the point of 'death' (demise) or immortality. All of this points to one thing and that is: The moment you are born you are already 'dead' (demise), you just don't know when it will happen. Put down the turd, 'death' (demise) and refuse to play patty-cake with it, you can't do anything about it anyway.

Have you ever had a bad enough accident that it made you confront how you are living your life? Have you ever been in a precarious situation and said something along the lines of “If you'll get me out of this I'll never do such and such again” and experienced a shift in your outlook on life? What I just said is a hint that points to 'death' (Be-ing). When you 'close the door' on the way you have been Be-ing, that's another hint that points to 'death' (Be-ing). Those 'hints' are all evidence you need to assure you of the possibility of 'death' (Be-ing).

You should avoid 'death' (demise) at any cost, however, you should run towards 'death' (Be-ing) and experience 'death' (Be-ing) as many times as you can. That's where you'll find 'living' (Be-ing who you are).

'Death' (demise) is a concept we 'play patty-cake' with to remind us to 'live'. However, 'living' is not the opposite of 'death' (demise). 'Living' is something else. It doesn't happen in the realm of the measurable, definable, world, it happens in Be-ing/knowing.

'Death' (demise) is just one of a whole world of concepts we use to hide behind. Your lot in life is to deconstruct the concept of 'death' (demise) and uncover the possibility of 'death' (Be-ing/liv-ing).

Let me say it again. Your lot in life is to de-construct the 'concepts' of life and uncover the possibility that the 'concepts' of life (the measurable, definable, world, and the 'they') don't define who you are. They can only define you as a measurable, definable, thing.

Deconstructing concepts of things like gun, car, airplane are so easy that you don't even take notice. The difficult concepts are the ones that humans Be-ing use to define Be-ing. Since “you should avoid 'death' (demise) at any cost”, when you come close to 'death' (Be-ing) you turn the possibility of not being able “to prove your existence in this world” into a concept to represent Be-ing.

As you de-construct the 'concepts', one by one, and disentangle your 'self' from the labyrinth of measurabilty and definability, you come to a point where you recognize that using the 'measurabilty and definability of the world' to prove your existence never 'captured' who 'you' really are. When you discover that the 'world's concepts can no longer capture 'you', you come face-to-face with the possibility that 'you' can't prove 'you' exist, not even to your 'self'.

Physics has proven that two things cannot occupy the same space, so, when 'you' existing, come face-to-face with the possibility that you don't exist, a very interesting thing happens. When both 'you existing' and 'the possibility that you don't exist' try to occupy the same space, they cancel each other out and both disappear. What gets left in their place is 'you', Be-ing.

What you have just experienced is 'death' (Be-ing).

When you experience 'death' (Be-ing), you will discover that you are no longer a slave to proving/not proving your existence and that now you have 'room' for you to replace 'proving/not proving your existence' with something else. This is the essence of human freedom.

In 'death' (Be-ing) you answer the question "Who am I?"

This is the 'story' (representation) of what happens in “Being and Time” by Martin Heidegger.

Heidegger speaks to Be-ing. It is why I read “Being and Time” 74 times. I was running toward 'death' (Be-ing).
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 08:24 pm
@Dasein,
...that all said and what is it that you have but a good measure of words and concepts relating all around the post...

Your Be-ing is n´t other but measures and countermeasures, concepts and objects and relations even if for their own denial...

...besides, to speak of death as the uncover of Be-ing is something that hardly can be explained since by definition it can´t be experienced in any sense...whatever you are you are always what you are...not dead !

Be-ing with all the denial of Being, in the very denial asserts the truthfulness of BEING !...
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 10:02 pm
A more interesting topic would be an argument for the need to prove my existence. The need to prove my existence seems paranoid.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 10:46 pm
@JLNobody,
You don't need to prove your existance, JLNobody - the IRS will do that for you and they know for sure that you exist. Now this was a very practical solution
to the question. Wink
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 10:39 am
@CalamityJane,
In UK Company Law reference is made to the landmark case (1897) of Salamon (the person) who sued Salamon (the company) for a bonus after the company had gone into receivership. Salamon (the person) won !

All JLN needs to do is to declare himself a company and strip the assets !
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 10:52 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:
All JLN needs to do is to declare himself a company and strip the assets !


That's been done for years already here in the U.S., fresco Wink
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 12:07 pm
@Arjuna,
Hi Arj. ! Very Happy
I wish that the little clarity in which I access some ideas was the very same in which I was able and willing to convey them to others...its far to messy and complicated to put in words an amount of work which often sidesteps formal long and unnecessary lengthy approaches to get to the right conclusions...of course, as you might well know, if it is the case not to think but to explain and translate, not just the English but the idea one has, then the amount of work/effort in need grows exponentially...I often find that the potential critical mass of audience does not justify the necessary commitment to bring me down of my own cosmogony, and straighten a huge amount of misunderstandings that people build along a life time...

Cheers !
Dasein
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 12:28 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...besides, to speak of death as the uncover of Be-ing is something that hardly can be explained since by definition it can´t be experienced in any sense...


Filipe;

I don't write about theories, concepts, or conjecture. What I wrote about is an actual experience I had approximately 2 months ago. However, having said that, I know that for most people (just about everybody) they won't 'hear' what I'm saying. They will only 'hear' a theory, conjecture, and conceptualizations. There is nothing I can do about that.

I'll be 62 in February of 2011 and for as far back as I can remember I have have found that most people are what I interpreted back then as “full of ****”. They really didn't know their “ass from their elbow”. Arrogant, isn't it. As I went through the process of living, I would ask questions about what I was experiencing and the answers I received never resolved any of my questions. I asked my father, my mother, my priest, my teachers, adults, scout masters, friends, you get the point. I didn't have the words back then, but now I can tell that what I was asking about was Be-ing. The only thing that mattered to me was Be-ing. I also didn't realize back then that the reason the answers never resolved my questions is because the people I asked didn't know what the hell they were talking about, they were giving me concepts, theories, and conjecture about Be-ing (BTW, nothing has changed in 60+ years, people still give matter-of-fact answers that they haven't investigated and haven't thought through.) They would give me any answer 'off the top of their head' just to get rid of me so they wouldn't have to think about what I was asking (I knew that back then, but I wouldn't 'put my finger on it').

About 15 years ago I had an 'inkling' of an idea that I didn't know what the hell I was talking about and that what I had been doing up to that point wasn't providing any resolution to my questions either. Imagine the quandary I was in. Nobody had any answers that resolved my questions. My questions still existed so I knew that after all of my active questing I was no better off than the day I was born. Can you just imagine the 'wall' I hit? It was about this time I came upon ”Being and Time” by Martin Heidegger. I have chronicled my 15-year relationship with the book in other posts, no need to go into any detail here. If you are curious, look them up.

After 15 years and 73 readings of ”Being and Time” I realized (about 2 months ago) that we, you & I, are the source of the concepts we use to represent 'life'. I also realized that the 'concepts' we use have nothing to do with 'living' or who we are. While in the middle of contemplating all of this, I noticed that I asked my 'self' this question, “If I am not the 'concepts' of life then who the hell am I?”

The following morning I awoke with the definite experience that I was standing on 'new ground', 'ground' that I have never stood on before. At that very moment I could look back and see the 'ground' I had been standing on for almost 62 years. I could also see that it is the same 'ground' that just about everybody in the world is standing on and I understand why they couldn't answer any of my questions. In the past 2 months I have been reminded of questions that I asked in the past only to find that those questions have been resolved.

I only have Heidegger's explanation as to what may have happened for all of this to occur. I happen to agree with his explanation. In 15 years and 73 times of reading ”Being and Time”, I have investigated and thought through the theories, the concepts, the presuppositions, and the postulations that existed on the other 'ground'. After stripping away the 'fabric' and seeing past what the 'they' had to say about it, I realized that “the emperor's not wearing any clothes”. That we are not the concepts, the presuppositions, and the postulations and that sometime during the night before “the following morning” “both 'me existing' and 'the possibility that I don't exist' tried to occupy the same space. They canceled each other out and 'I' made the 'leap' to 'new ground'. What got left in their place is 'me', Be-ing. (See post # 4,424,688 to ikurwa89 for more detail) The good news is that I recognize when somebody is standing on the ground I used to stand on. I can leave you where you're standing without having to participate in your machinations. I can also see a time when I will disappear from this forum and let you be.

Why am I taking the time to write all this? Let's put it this way. What I know, I know. I know that I know and nothing you can theorize, conceptualize, or postulate will stop me from knowing what I know.

Now that I know what I know, and my knowing that anything you have to say isn't going to change what I know, it's important to me to let the ones who can 'hear' what I'm saying know that they know what I know and that we are not alone.

If you can't 'hear' what I'm saying maybe you should click on the “Dasein” link and then click on the “Ignore User” button to keep yourself from going through the aggravation of asking me to explain and me telling you that it can't be explained. Until the day I disappear from this forum I will keep posting, you don't have to keep reading what I post.

If you want to argue with me about what I've written that's okay. Just don't expect me to participate in your argument. I'll click on the 'Ignore User' button for you.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 02:13 pm
@Dasein,
I hear (sic) you've had a Heideggerian "epiphany".

Question: What makes you wish to constantly share your "experience" with others whom you know are likely to be less than receptive to such claims ?

The reason I ask is that my experience of "enlightenment" (to coin a term) which I believe is common to meditators, is that the need to communicate such experience tends to dissipate in line with the dissipation of "the self".

BTW: I have already indicated that I am an admirer of Heidegger's insights despite reservations about his character.





Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 04:48 pm
@fresco,
But the fact that one wishes to confront opinions cannot result in aggravation only for the sake of posing very pertinent questions specially in a philosophy forum...
...in the case I have an overall good impression on Dasein although I disagree with him...the same happens between me and you and I think we can manage to dialogue to some extent...as for the ignore button, well if think it does n´t deserve any comments at all, in the case is way over the top...
0 Replies
 
Dasein
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 05:15 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

I hear (sic) you've had a Heideggerian "epiphany".

I wouldn't call it an epiphany, it wasn't an ah-hah experience.
Quote:

Question: What makes you wish to constantly share your "experience" with others whom you know are likely to be less than receptive to such claims ?

I think that's an improperly asked question. I've always been 'driven' to 'project' Be-ing into a world that tries to squash me. It's just taken 62 years to get free from that world.
Quote:

The reason I ask is that my experience of "enlightenment" (to coin a term) which I believe is common to meditators,

My experience is that there is nothing common about what happened to me. In my 62 years I have met only one other person that has had my experience. Don't take that to mean anything except that I haven't met the others.
Quote:

is that the need to communicate such experience tends to dissipate in line with the dissipation of "the self".

I question your experience of "enlightment" only because I haven't experienced anything like the 'dissipation' of the self you mention. I'm experiencing (bear with me on this) a 'deepening of knowing' and not a hint of dissipation.
Quote:

admirer of Heidegger's insights despite reservations about his character.

It doesn't mean anything to be an "admirer of Heidegger's insights". What matters is thinking through for yourself what Heidegger thought through and presented. If you're bringing his character into question you're focusing on the wrong thing.
JPLosman0711
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 05:23 pm
@Dasein,
It doesn't mean anything to be an "admirer of Heidegger's insights". What matters is thinking through for yourself what Heidegger thought through and presented. If you're bringing his character into question you're focusing on the wrong thing

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every ******* video I watch of Heidegger they always bring that **** up - but they're only hurting their Be-ings, robbing themselves of his brilliance by focusing on what he DID insted of what he wrote - Information is information folks - all about how you interpret it. Words are words - Heidegger's life is just that - Heideggers.
0 Replies
 
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 08:54 pm
I'm sorry if this is too harsh for sensetive philosophers, but this existialism thing, seem so hopeless useless. It should be very selfexplanatory if something exist, people asking such selfexplanatory questions may have very low amount of rationallity. Hopefully the majority of philosopher will have it outlawed.
0 Replies
 
 

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