How to get to Heaven?

Jesus works for me.

No not drunk enough.

Re: How to get to Heaven?


What do you have to be "saved" from?

Well, the only thing that I know of that you are saved from are your sins. If there is more than that then I don't know. But then I don't have as much knowledge in this area as some people do.

I have heard though that some people believe that after you have been forgiven that if you don't live a semi-pristine life then you will be back in the same spot that you were in before you asked to be saved.

That kind of thinking doesn't make sense to me. Once you've been saved then maybe you will still have to ask forgiveness of your daily sins but does it make sense that you would be basically kicked out of your spot in Heaven and have to start all over again?

Do you believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy as well? These are stories sold to the gullible. I can understand how when these myths were generated people could believe however, I wonder how semi intelligent people in these enlightened times can believe in them.

Slipstream

You seem like a sincere person, so let's discuss this for a bit.

You wrote:



Ahhh...but one really doesn't have to be saved from their sins, do they?

I mean, the "sins" can't harm a person in any substantial way. In fact, most "sins" -- or at least the ones I think you reference -- are fun.

By any chance...do you mean to be "saved" from the wrath of a god -- who might resent the "sins" -- and who might have punishments in mind for people who partake of "sin?"

Is that actually what you mean?

I suppose I can understand what your saying but even in these "enlightened times" people still have beliefs in a higher power and that God exists, I don't think it has to do with intelligence but more the courage to place your faith in your beliefs. Your comparison to Sana Claus and the Tooth Fairy I can also understand but for the sake of answering your question, no I don't believe in the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus. However I do believe in the spirit of Christmas.

If by the spirit of Christmas you mean peace on earth and good will to men I concur. However if you mean it in a spiritual or religious vein to me it has no meaning.

"By any chance...do you mean to be "saved" from the wrath of a god -- who might resent the "sins" -- and who might have punishments in mind for people who partake of "sin?" "

Thanks for the compliment Frank, and in a way what you said as I mentioned again above is what I am talking about. That God asks you to live by the commandments he lays out in the Bible so that you might be rewarded later on when you go to heaven and according to the Bible those who don't believe and are left behind in the end times suffer the wrath of God.

Of course being only human there is no way we can live by his commandments to the letter because people are just prone to sinning, you can't really help it I suppose. If you could then you probably wouldn't be here on Earth. Does that make sense?

Think of a father with several children - some misbehave terribly and only one is perfect. So he tells the others, well, I will let you kill the perfect one and that will make it alright - because you killed him I will forgive you all and let you have your inheritance.
Doesn't make much sense to me.

No, I mean The Spirit of Christmas in the same way as you au 19 29, did I get the name right?

Yeah Eve, I have to confess that it doesn't make much sense to me either. There are some things when it comes to the Bible that I am just not sure I understand why it works the way it does but then if we did understand all those things then that would probably mean we were in Heaven and given the answers to all those frustrating questions that we have no answers to now.

No God, no wrath. No reason to be "saved". The Ten Commandments may be central to the Abrahamic faiths, but to the rest of they're a dog that don't hunt.

What is "sin"? To be out of balance with Nature? To have wandered off the path of Beauty? To think, speak, and/or act in a way that increases the suffering attached to existence? You can't be "saved" from any of these, but must be responsible for your own thoughts and behavior. To forgive the maniac who drunkenly runs over and kills a pedestrian on a sidewalk doesn't bring back the dead, nor really lessen the suffering caused by the wanton act. Followers of the Abrahamic faiths seem to feel that they can ramage, murder and mutilate pretty much at will, so long as they can get a "free pass" by their god. Very convienent for them, and a real pain for the followers of other religions who have had to bear these plagues for the last thousand years or so.

What amazes is that God cared enough to send himself in Christ - to relate to us and bring forth a maturation process for his children.

Slipstream

I'm an agnostic.I have no idea if there actually is a God or not -- and all things considered, I don't much care. It is obvious to me that if there is a God -- the God has pretty much left us on our own to do with this world and our individual lives whatever we decide to do with them.

I most definitely do not buy into the Bible -- and I suspect that if there is a God (could be!) -- the God is nothing at all like the god described in the Bible.




But for the sake of this discussion, I will assume there is a God. Keep in mind that it is an assumption pulled out of thing air -- JUST FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS DISCUSSION.



None of us where alive when the books of the Bible were written -- so the best that we can do is to make guesses about whether or not it does what it purports to do -- namely, to tell us what God is like; what pleases God; what offends God; and how God deals with people who do not do what the book tells them God wants them to do.

It is my opinion that the best guess that can be made about the Bible is that it is a rather self-serving history of the early Hebrew people -- interspersed with a rather primative mythology.

The early Hebrew people were surrounded by "enemies" who all had ferocious, barbaric, savage, vengeful, murderous, demanding gods. So they wanted a ferocious, barbaric, savage, vengful, murderous, demanding god for themselves.

And that is the kind of god they invented.

Present day Christians like to talk about a kind, slow to anger, quick to forgive, loving god -- but Slipstream, the god of the Bible -- ostensibly the god of Christianity -- is not a kind, slow to anger, quick to forgive, merciful, loving god by any stretch of the imagination. The god of the Bible is mean spirited, quick to anger, very slow to forgive, and about as loving as a Brillo pad.

So putting any stock in the Bible seems to me to be wasting the intellect God gave humans. (Keep that assumption I mentioned earlier in mind!)

Much better that they reject the god of the Bible out of hand -- and, rather than supposing ANYTHING about the nature of God, just living out their lives as decently as possible given the sensibilities they have to work with.

Any comments?

Any questions?

I like that comment Frank, that if there is a God he has pretty much left us to do what we want with the world and our individual lives. That is so logical I wonder how I missed it.

Thanks, Eve.

I'm having a ball with mine.

Hope you are, too.

You know Frank, I have to say you make a very interesting point and I agree with you about how God does come across as harsh in the Bible, actually I see him more as black and white. Do as I say or face the punishment can seem pretty harsh but if you are going to live your life in a good way anyhow and not go about killing and hurting people and doing evil deeds then I don't think the rath of God is something you really need worry about.

Now like I think I mentioned before, my knowledge in this area isn't the best but if you are a good person and you are living a good honest life then your in good shape anyhow because the Bible also says that those who follow the teachings of Jesus whether they know it or not will have a place in Heaven or at least I think I remember reading that. . . brain fog. . . trying to figure out if I went to far from what you were saying

No what amazes me is that he drowned just about every living thing and will happily burn all the survivors next time. The Old Man's on the worst binge of all time!!