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Equal gain

 
 
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 07:09 pm
Is all human life equal with respect to pleasure or lack of it?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 956 • Replies: 16
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wayne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 07:16 pm
@Homomorph,
Potentially or actually?
Homomorph
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 07:17 pm
@wayne,
Actually.
0 Replies
 
Homomorph
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 07:31 pm
@wayne,
I see what you are implying, but what is the counter example?
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 07:59 pm
@Homomorph,
Homomorph wrote:

I see what you are implying, but what is the counter example?


Does all human life possess equal potential for pleasure?

Possibly, in an inherent manner.

Actually, a starving child in Rwanda is not equal to, say you or I, with respect to pleasure or lack thereof.

While we may, theoretically, be born equally, circumstances begin at birth.
Homomorph
 
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Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 08:09 pm
@wayne,
I agree.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 08:52 pm
@Homomorph,
I'm not sure where you got that idea, but it's wrong. The majority on the planet do not have enough to eat; pleasure (or most anything else I can think of) is difficult to experience when one is hungry.
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Razzleg
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 11:09 pm
@Homomorph,
Homomorph wrote:

Is all human life equal with respect to pleasure or lack of it?


Well, not only are we humans born in disparate circumstances...But even if we were born with a blank slate: how would you quantify "pleasure" from a non-subjective/non-local viewpoint? Is there a meaningful, universal pleasure index?

cicerone imposter wrote:

I'm not sure where you got that idea, but it's wrong. The majority on the planet do not have enough to eat; pleasure (or most anything else I can think of) is difficult to experience when one is hungry.


While i sympathize with your moral implications here, i still have to disagree. Even starving people can feel pleasure, poverty is not a barrier to happiness. And, of course, there are plenty of starving drug addicts and alcoholics that could confirm that physical pleasure is available without food-money. I'm not trying to dispute the economic message you are sending, but the facts are more complicated.
thack45
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 11:17 pm
@Homomorph,
Homomorph wrote:

Is all human life equal with respect to pleasure or lack of it?
Can pleasure or the lack of it be demonstrated as equal between just two human lives?
Homomorph
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 03:38 pm
@Razzleg,

Well, not only are we humans born in disparate circumstances...But even if we were born with a blank slate: how would you quantify "pleasure" from a non-subjective/non-local viewpoint? Is there a meaningful, universal pleasure index?


No (thought about what to say for a while and that seemed to be the simplest and most direct, minus this part).

What if we make a simple game like pacman, except every man-packer can eat every other one, or say we could change any thing we wanted to. Equality seems plausible in some ways.
0 Replies
 
Homomorph
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 03:42 pm
@thack45,
If you have a pool with several people in it, can you control their movements by changing the water?
Homomorph
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 04:10 pm
@thack45,
If we can show that the net effect from a disturbance for any "conscious" system has a certain quantifiable "identity", then maybe we can show equality for all elements in the system.
thack45
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 06:22 pm
@Homomorph,
Homomorph wrote:

If you have a pool with several people in it, can you control their movements by changing the water?
Yes. I would have them get out of the pool while I changed the water.
0 Replies
 
thack45
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 06:38 pm
@Homomorph,
Homomorph wrote:

If we can show that the net effect from a disturbance for any "conscious" system has a certain quantifiable "identity", then maybe we can show equality for all elements in the system.
Is this in relation to your prior post? I am not sure that I follow. But do not take this as a disparaging reply. Can you explain your terms further?
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 07:22 pm
@Homomorph,
Homomorph wrote:

Is all human life equal with respect to pleasure or lack of it?


Of course! Whereas pleasure translates to different emotions with most everyone, regardless of their socioeconomic and cultural background.
For instance: that kid in Rwanda can experience enormous pleasure by eating a decent meal. Gratifying sex can be equally pleasurable for all involved, or - if it's less ideal - just for one. Playing music can be equally pleasurable for the musician and the listener.

Everyone experiences pleasure in equal form, i.e. experiencing something
enjoyable, having a positive emotion and sensation, what is different however,
is the individual source of pleasure and enjoyment.
0 Replies
 
Homomorph
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 07:31 pm
@thack45,
I did not, and yes it is in relation.

For example, if we knew enough about the water (ie. chemical comp., temperature variance, wave peak/min frequency and p/m amplitude ect...) and if we could at will manipulate those "variables, " then, if done in the correct way, we could move the people around in the pool itself. We could change parts of the water to be cold were the people are, but inject streams, bubbles or pockets of warm water to attract them to different locations. More simply, somewhat like you stated, we could drain the pool they would all probably on average get out of the pool cavity faster than with the water (so we still would have accomplished the objective of getting them out faster).

This may be too big of a leap (logical, not explanatory), but assuming this leads to everything being manipulatively determinable, at least socially (not on an absolute physical level). Therefore, it seems that there should be equivalence, since we assume the (predictable, calculable...)adaptation to outside influence.
0 Replies
 
Render
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 07:47 pm
@Homomorph,
As long is their brains are functional, they have everything necessary to find pleasure regardless of circumstances. The mind will work out something to find pleasure as it will get the "pleasure feeling/chemicals" only through different paths.

Poor child finding fresh water.
Some guy's football team wins.
0 Replies
 
 

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