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Tue 13 Jul, 2010 09:28 pm
I after listening to Steven pinker ` s talk on the blank slate, and reading the article "are we evolving" in the recent edition of discovery. It seems there is good reason to think intelligence, and temperament are inner. In the discovery article, human evolution seem to be speeding up in the last 10, 000 years, and the author say most of these genotypes are probable selected for by occupations. When people started to build cities, there is less need for people to be farm, and thus, free up a lot of people to do all sorts of things. As the population in the cities increased, there is also need for increase in intelligence, according to the "social brain hypothesis"( see another thread of mine). In the discovery article, there is also two interesting examples. The jews are probable smart, because they were sort of forced into business, and trade. The jews also have an academic tradition of studying the bible. One way for jews to gain status in the community is to distinguish themselves in the study of the talmud. In short, the jewish academic tradition is a very real thing. The author also give the example of ancient chinese implementing the manderin system. A system that is sort of like the modern day standardized exam. Regardless of class, anyone that can pass the exam was given a job by the government, and these people in turn of have children. These two example could probable explain why jews, and Asians are so good in scholastic achievements.
@TuringEquivalent,
Well while it is true that Jews and Asians have been tested for considerably higher average iq scores, this may be because of other socioeconomic factors that have also been shown to impact intellegence(iq).
anytime you have a closed gene pool for an extended period of time you can expect that pool to deviate from other gene pools. This notion that we are all the same is absurd, but it has become part of the creed of democracy, and to refuse to affirm it is enough to make one a heretic.
Try going out in public saying that Asians are smarter than most, or blacks more athletic, and watch what happens. You will see that I am correct.
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Render wrote:Well while it is true that Jews and Asians have been tested for considerably higher average iq scores,
this may be because of other socioeconomic factors that have also been shown to impact intellegence(iq).
WHICH factors ?
An argument for nurture would be tradition. Traditionally, there is a culture of study in jewish culture, and it is in fact a jewish law that a jew must study the bible if he is conscious, and not engaged in productive leisure, or work.
For asians, it seems education is a mean to repay, and fulfill one`s family wishes. You see that asian parents would make it their goal to send their children to the best high schools, and colleges. Asian parents have high expectations.
@TuringEquivalent,
Motivated parents can certainly influence outcomes. Not sure they can manipulate potentials.
@roger,
roger wrote:
Motivated parents can certainly influence outcomes. Not sure they can manipulate potentials.
It is estimated that parenting makes up only 10% of the children `s outcome, and this is from pinker.
Since I am a secular Jew, I really can only comment, based on my observations, about Jews. Here goes - over the last few thousand years, when Jews existed as a gene pool, some Jews (perhaps, especially males) married non-Jewish mates. However, since Jews put a value on intelligence, Jews "marrying out" of the gene pool married intelligent non-Jews. In other words, it is my opinion, that while Jews today (Ashkenazi) are a fairly watered down version of Semite, their intelligence (if we believe they have some genetic trait of intelligence) was usually enhanced when they "married out."
What I think I am saying is that Ashkenazi Jews may reflect a gene pool of sorts; however, any intelligence that is reflected there may come from the culture emphasizing intelligence as a preferred trait in a mate. So, regardless of whether Jews marry other Jews, or non-Jews, Jews tend to marry intelligent people. This is my opinion. I could be very wrong?
If though Jews have a gene pool of sorts, with a predominance of whatever genetic traits effect intelligence, then it might take longer for a "regression to the mean" of average intelligence? This could all be wishful thinking on my part, since naturally, as a secular Jew I would like to believe that there must be some recompense for Jews being the recipient of perennial scorn by many a fellow citizen (in whatever country they live).
The other theory is that the less than intelligent Jews (aka, naive) have been killed off over the centuries by anti-Semites. I give that theory some credence, since the stereotype of the "timid Jew" is not reflected in Israelis, and they are the survivors of a genetic sort of sorts only 60 years ago?
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:over the last few thousand years, when Jews existed as a gene pool, some Jews (perhaps, especially males) married non-Jewish mates. However, since Jews put a value on intelligence, Jews "marrying out" of the gene pool married intelligent non-Jews. In other words, it is my opinion, that while Jews today (Ashkenazi) are a fairly watered down version of Semite, their intelligence (if we believe they have some genetic trait of intelligence) was usually enhanced when they "married out."
Oh my God, those greedy Jews stole our intelligence and horded it for themselves! They took all the smart people and left the rubes in the gene pool.
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero wrote:
Foofie wrote:over the last few thousand years, when Jews existed as a gene pool, some Jews (perhaps, especially males) married non-Jewish mates. However, since Jews put a value on intelligence, Jews "marrying out" of the gene pool married intelligent non-Jews. In other words, it is my opinion, that while Jews today (Ashkenazi) are a fairly watered down version of Semite, their intelligence (if we believe they have some genetic trait of intelligence) was usually enhanced when they "married out."
Oh my God, those greedy Jews stole our intelligence and horded it for themselves! They took all the smart people and left the rubes in the gene pool.
Hey, how about the possibility of "greedy," and intelligent shiksas wanting nice Jewish boys for their husbands, and leaving the macho Gentile men for the average shiksa to marry?
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
The other theory is that the less than intelligent Jews (aka, naive) have been killed off over the centuries by anti-Semites.
I give that theory some credence, since the stereotype of the "timid Jew" is not reflected in Israelis, and they are the survivors of a genetic sort of sorts only 60 years ago?
Do u consider yourself to be "timid" ?
David
@Render,
A couple of statisticians attempted a meta-analysis of IQ test scores to try and answer the nature vs nurture question and published a book called
The Bell Curve. It was fairly controversial when it was published in the mid-90's. It concluded that there is a hereditary aspect to intelligence, that there are differences between the races (thus the controversy) and posited that in today's society where the educated and intelligent are pairing off in college, we are essentially breeding a cognitive elite that will pull away from humanity in general creating strife.
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Foofie wrote:
The other theory is that the less than intelligent Jews (aka, naive) have been killed off over the centuries by anti-Semites.
I give that theory some credence, since the stereotype of the "timid Jew" is not reflected in Israelis, and they are the survivors of a genetic sort of sorts only 60 years ago?
Do u consider yourself to be "timid" ?
David
Do not make the thread personal. I am not the subject of this thread.
I had a lot of Jewish friends when I live in the San Francisco area and we had many discussions for the reasons of high Jewish intelligence. We decided one important reason is that the Rabbis marry and have large families. They educate their girls as well as their boys and the intelligence genes were passed down to the generations.
Catholics priests were educated while most people were not literate. They were not allowed to marry when in the 11th century, the Pope required they be celibate to put a stop to priests giving their parish land away to their children and not to the church. Consequently, they did not have children to educate. As a result, the smartest men did not have children and did not pass their learning down to new generations. This continues to this day.
Many other cultures did not, and still don't, educate their girls. Uneducated mothers will not have educated daughters and generation after generation lacks the education that would improve their lives.
BBB
@Foofie,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Foofie wrote:
The other theory is that the less than intelligent Jews (aka, naive) have been killed off over the centuries by anti-Semites.
I give that theory some credence, since the stereotype of the "timid Jew" is not reflected in Israelis, and they are the survivors of a genetic sort of sorts only 60 years ago?
Do u consider yourself to be "timid" ?
David
Foofie wrote:
Do not make the thread personal. I am not the subject of this thread.
The forum is anonymous; just out of curiosity.
I 'm not saying that u r right or rong.
David
There was a graph published recently in the local newspaper showing the performance of Asians, Whites, Hispanics, and Black. Asians were on top, but it shows that Hispanics were gaining ground on standardized tests in California.
It's my belief that Asians do well is based primarily on Asian culture. As somebody mentioned, any citizen who was able to past a test to work for royalty advanced to high positions in government. That's been true in most Asian cultures, so education was emphasized.
Even though I never did very well in grade school, my life changed after I earned my BS in Accounting. I had the opportunity to work most of my career in management positions, and retired after 30 years. All my siblings earned their degrees much earlier, began their careers long before I earned my degree, but I was the first in our family to retire.
I'm not really sure why I share this, but I believe that Asian accomplishment in general and the reputation we have gained has helped me succeed.
Even at UC Berkeley (considered the top public university in the US), Asians make up the majority. Over the years, Asians have complained about reverse discrimination, because slots were made for Hispanics and blacks who had lower SAT scores took away from Asians.
I also know that average earnings for Asians is one of the highest in the US, and Jews have higher earnings.
If you would like a good counter argument to Pinker's cognitive scientific outlook read Stephen Jay Gould's: The Mismeasure of Man.
http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=101963940
@BumbleBeeBoogie,
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Many other cultures did not, and still don't, educate their girls. Uneducated mothers will not have educated daughters and generation after generation lacks the education that would improve their lives.
While this is true, I don't think it relates to genetic intelligence. If these girls have better "smart" genes, they are still passing them on even if they haven't fully realized the benefits in their lives.
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:It's my belief that Asians do well is based primarily on Asian culture. As somebody mentioned, any citizen who was able to past a test to work for royalty advanced to high positions in government. That's been true in most Asian cultures, so education was emphasized.
That's an interesting hypothesis. Even more importantly, it's testable. To the extent that culture predicts intelligence-test scores, first-generation Asian immigrants should score notably better than their second- and third-generation descendants. After all, the descendants are culturally "more American" and "less Asian". Have generational comparisons of that kind been published? If so, I wonder what they say.
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