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Why Free Will Is Incompatible with Human Experience

 
 
tomr
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2010 10:49 am
@ughaibu,
Quote:
Your argument attempts to deny free will from the fact that the agent has a means of evaluation, but that is a requirement for free will.


It is not because they have a means of evaluating a choice that I argue it is because of where the evaluation ultimately occurs. To have a desire is not an evaluation it is an experience of a thought. Do you believe that your experience gives you alternatives. Even if this experience originated without being your choice to have? Also how do you know your alternatives are realisable do you just feel that under the same circumstances you could make a different choice? or do you have reasons beyond your experience that makes you think you can?
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2010 10:56 am
@tomr,
tomr wrote:
To have a desire is not an evaluation it is an experience of a thought.
I know a desire isn't an evaluation, one evaluates the options according to, inter alia, one's desires. What do you mean by the "experience of a thought"? You seem to be talking about a Cartesian theatre.
tomr wrote:
Also how do you know your alternatives are realisable do you just feel that under the same circumstances you could make a different choice?
I've demonstrated this, just a few posts ago. If I told you that I'm going to toss two coins fifty times and for each pair of tosses both coins will show the same face, and then I demonstrate it, you would not think that this was coincidence, would you?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2010 11:00 am
The problem is not about denying Will, but to deny the term free behind it...
It does n´t matter that I am the agent who chooses...my choice is conditioned in several degrees of order...so free is the point of view of the local acting agent and not an Universal absolute state of being...

HOW A CHOICE IS CONDITIONED TO BE MADE:

1 - An external cause towards some need...
2 - my need forming a drive or an instinct towards action. (pre-conscience) ...(It might be more then one contradictory instinct and then we apply natural selection...)
3 - a set of possibility´s to fit an outcome of my future chosen action...
4 - means of evaluation towards the given set, meaning restricted computational capability for judgement to arise in a given defined direction to best satisfy my want...
5 - and the specific set of means to apply the outcome of that very same judgement of course in the more efficient manner given my concrete knowledge at time x which is also restricted to some specific extent...
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2010 11:03 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
1 - An external cause towards some need...
2 - my need forming a drive or an instinct towards action. (pre-conscience)
3 - a set of possibility´s to fit an outcome of my future chosen action...
4 - means of evaluation towards the given set, meaning restricted computational capability for judgement to arise in a given defined direction to best satisfy my want...
5 - and the specific set of means to apply the outcome of that very same judgement of course in the more efficient manner given my concrete knowledge at time x which is also restricted to some specific extent...
And how is any of this meant to conflict with free will?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2010 11:08 am
@ughaibu,
The outcome of your decision is at all states conditioned in the chain step... and most of it not even Consciously...you are always in a reaction chain...
...Freedom is the local point of view of the agent and not an ABSOLUTE state of being, meaning other observer can disagree...
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2010 11:09 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
1 - An external cause towards some need...
2 - my need forming a drive or an instinct towards action. (pre-conscience)
3 - a set of possibility´s to fit an outcome of my future chosen action...
4 - means of evaluation towards the given set, meaning restricted computational capability for judgement to arise in a given defined direction to best satisfy my want...
5 - and the specific set of means to apply the outcome of that very same judgement of course in the more efficient manner given my concrete knowledge at time x which is also restricted to some specific extent...
And how is any of this meant to conflict with free will?


Don't ask embarrassing questions. (Although, it is not clear that he would be embarrassed not to know the answer).
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2010 11:18 am
The parameters to the outcome of your judgement were not established neither controlled by your will...the problem is will transcendent...you are not a closed system !

IS UTTERLY STUPID TO NOT SEE IT STRAIGHT AWAY !!! ( and that is what should be considered embarrassing... )
0 Replies
 
tomr
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2010 11:22 am
@ughaibu,
Quote:
What do you mean by the "experience of a thought"?


The feeling of having a thought. As opposed to what we would imagine something like a computer performing operations would "feel" - nothing.

Quote:
I've demonstrated this, just a few posts ago. If I told you that I'm going to toss two coins fifty times and for each pair of tosses both coins will show the same face, and then I demonstrate it, you would not think that this was coincidence, would you?

No, I would not but I do not understand the last part of the argument. I'll go back and read it again but if you could explain again how this hypothetical works it would help.

0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2010 12:24 pm
0 Replies
 
litewave
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2010 04:46 pm
@kennethamy,
Quote:
I still don't see any contradiction, but aside from the fact that you might not know what a contradiction is, it is simply not true that if I do what I want to do, I am not in control of what I do.

In terms of having control over your action, your following your desire is equivalent to a situation where a neurologist induces a desire in you by stimulating your brain. Would you still regard the act determined by this desire as your free will act?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2010 05:59 pm
@litewave,
litewave wrote:

Quote:
I still don't see any contradiction, but aside from the fact that you might not know what a contradiction is, it is simply not true that if I do what I want to do, I am not in control of what I do.

In terms of having control over your action, your following your desire is equivalent to a situation where a neurologist induces a desire in you by stimulating your brain. Would you still regard the act determined by this desire as your free will act?


How is it equivalent? In the case you envision, the desire is forced on me. But my desire to have chocolate ice-cream for desert is not forced on me. The two situations are utterly different. You have presented no reason to think they are in any way alike. You have simply asserted that they are alike. There is a constant refrain of such analogies: we are like puppets; we are like characters in a film reading lines and doing things scripted for us. But no evidence is ever given for the assertion that the analogy is correct. It is simply asserted that it is correct. And assertion is no argument. Your analogy is just like the others. All assertion, but no argument.
litewave
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2010 06:11 pm
@kennethamy,
Quote:
How is it equivalent? In the case you envision, the desire is forced on me. But my desire to have chocolate ice-cream for desert is not forced on me. The two situations are utterly different.

Your desires are caused by factors that are out of your control. The only difference is that they are usually other factors than a neurologist.
0 Replies
 
 

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