KV
I honestly do not think there are things like "good" and "evil" -- so I really cannot contribute further to the original post.
I love how you just came to the conclusion that good and evil don't exist when Individual stated that earlier.
But they can and do exist and shape our lives every single day. The only problem is that there is no proof.
Sheep wrote:I love how you just came to the conclusion that good and evil don't exist when Individual stated that earlier.
But they can and do exist and shape our lives every single day. The only problem is that there is no proof.
I have probably written those words twenty or more times in various threads. It is not a new idea with me -- nor with anyone else.
The notion of "evil" is simply one that has way too much ambiguity to it to be useful. And I think "evil" deals with morals -- which, as I said several times, I consider to depend on a god.
I am an agnostic -- and I do not even know if any gods exist. So it is very difficult to conceive of "evil" in that sense.
There certainly are things that I consider to be detrimental to a functioning society -- and some people use the word "evil" to describe them.
Me...well, normally I try to stay away from discussions of "evil" -- and speak instead about how society functions best -- and the things that it ought to demand of individuals.
I think that the most productive discussions delete 'evil' altogether and just deal with how to solve the problem.
There is no such thing as good or evil.
Humans are nothing more than complex machines. Scroll down to my last post to see why.
Simply stated, one cannot deny the existence of light/dark, day/night, etc. It's the duality of those components that allow us to determine what may be 'right' or 'wrong' for each indivdual decision. We cannot strike a balance without each component.
I believe there's a higher power - spirit if you will - that connects all of us.
Re: Good And Evil
Diane wrote: My point was, in a way, the same--we just wouldn't have words or even concepts for the positives.
Agreed that we would not need words or concepts for good if there was nothing with which to contrast it. But IMO we could have and appreciate beauty and goodness for their own sakes even if we knew nothing of ugliness and evil.
K.VEE.SHANKER wrote: But,I latter on realised that "Evil tendancies" existed not only among humans but even amongst animals and insects.You can see the tendancies like canibalism, fraud and exploitation among insects.This can never be ascribed to learning behaviours.So, I say " Evil is God's creation".
Agreed that man did not create most of the systematic exploitation and killing in the world. But what makes you think that it was created by a god rather than being the result of impersonal forces of nature?
If we define evil as intentionally causing unnecessary pain to another being, then animals are not evil if they act purely on instinct. Even animals that deliberately kill cannot be considered evil if they are incapable of knowing right from wrong.
K.VEE.SHANKER wrote: Further, I realise that the bigger the issue and or more urgent the job are they cannot be achieved without a few evil acts sprinkled over the Good.All wars and big nations are found only with a sizable contribution of Evil.You can stand outside and pick holes.But, the fact remains that they can not be achieved without some evil.
What is it that wars and big nations achieve that justifies the existence of evil?
K.VEE.SHANKER wrote: We should not yearn for an ideal state bereft of our dislikes.
Why not?
K.VEE.SHANKER wrote: Does God exists? is a question I'm also interested in,like you.May be you can throw more light on it.Meanwhile,you can substitute nature in place of God.
As regards to your question wether God or nature does what I've claimed to,I only wish to say that I'm talking about what's present already in this world.I would love to give advice if God asks for it!
That puts a whole different light on the question. All animals exploit other life in order to survive, and predators are a necessary part of the food chain. Human beings are extremely good at exploiting their environment and each other, but that does not necessarily make us evil. An action is evil if it is intentional and causes unnecessary pain and suffering to others.
Biological urges and culture (nature and nurture) are sufficient causes for good and evil actions by human beings. No other force or concept of god is required. So why are some people so determined to attribute them to a god?
MichaelAllen wrote: God exists because I find that easier to believe than evolution. Good comes from me choosing God's intervention. Bad is the absence of God's intervention. He doesn't always intervene so that you know the difference.
Your personal inability to understand evolution is not proof of God's existence. :wink:
Even if God exists, how do you know that his intervention is "good"? Based on what I have observed of biology and history, any being that deliberately created all of this is either unethical or incompetent.
K.VEE.SHANKER wrote: He says that morality is universal.It's not dependant on religion,race or culture.It's a judgement we all make in our mind.We all agree that stealing,cheating,lying to get unjustified gain etc., are evils.Every religion or culture accepts this.
Morality may be universal, but there is no universal agreement on what is moral or immoral. Stealing, cheating or lying may be accepted or justified in some circumstances, and in any case I would not consider them to be "evil" unless they hurt someone.
For instance, cheating on your income taxes might be justifiable if you thought that the tax system was inequitable.
K.VEE.SHANKER wrote: For example it's an established fact that in wars and Foreign affairs any evil is acceptable to achieve the purpose.
No, it isn't an established fact. Ever hear of the Nuremburg trials?
Frank Apisa wrote:There certainly are things that I consider to be detrimental to a functioning society -- and some people use the word "evil" to describe them.
Me...well, normally I try to stay away from discussions of "evil" -- and speak instead about how society functions best -- and the things that it ought to demand of individuals.
Exactly. And if we could get away from the notion that men are sinful by nature (or in the clutches of Satan) and good comes only from God, then we could work on the biological and cultural bases of the detrimental aspects without worrying about sin and salvation.
I agree with many views expressed by Terry.I agree that it is difficult to discuss about morality without dragging the God issue in.Frank Apisa wrote about good for society.For me it looks all the same.You cannot talk about society without thinking about the Government(like) controling it.But,if we are going to insist on God issue be settled first then it leads us nowhere.
Terry raised a very beautiful question about why human beings alone bother about morality if all other living beings can go jolly well with out any concern about burdonsome morality.There is only one reason as far as I can recogonise.We're not satisfied with our existing conditions.While other living beings are out and out selfish and lead a pure selfish Life, we humans are concerned with fellow human beings because we know that together we can lead a much better and safer Life.Individually life is possible only to very small level.All the gadgets,all the comforts and all the Knowledge foe us would not have been possible without contributions form others.We're always concerned with betterment of Life.We always believe that this is not the Life arrangement we want and there must be something better.Further, all the other living beings behave without any option.But,we're always concerned about Freedom.
Therefore, we must be concerned about Good and bad in relation to our aim whatever it is.It was also argued that recogonised evil or bad acts are justified for the sake of common Good.I don't deny it.My contention is that nothing worthwhile is possible without a minimum contribution from Evil.Do you all agree on it or not?
Let's put this in a way everyone can understand.....
If it benefits the Quinneys( that's my family name K Vee) it's good
If it doesn't, it's bad......
that's all anyone really has to know......
Terry wrote:An action is evil if it is intentional and causes unnecessary pain and suffering to others.
How do you define unneccesary though. I'm certain that every person that commits an "evil" action viewed it as a neccesary term. Neccesary is no more precise a term than evil. Neither can be defined because neither are absolutes. Both are entirely dependent on the individual. Thus there is no absolute good or evil. And even ones own idea of what is good or evil will change under different circumstances.
This all contributes to my belief that living beings are no different than machines.
K.VEE.SHANKER wrote:My contention is that nothing worthwhile is possible without a minimum contribution from Evil.Do you all agree on it or not?
No, I don't agree, but I would be interested in your reasons for believing that. Granted that we live in societies where self-interest can induce us to harm others while rationalizing that it is for the best, but accepting that evil happens does not mean that it is required for any good things to be accomplished.
Centroles, of course "necessary" is not a precise term, and is not an absolute any more than good and evil. A parent and child would not agree on whether the pain of punishment is "necessary."
It is included in the definition because sometimes pain must be deliberately inflicted for good reasons such as life-saving surgery.
Can you suggest a better working definition?
The concept of Good and Evil can only exist if God exists. If God doesn't exist then Good wouldn't be good and Evil wouldn't be evil, since these concepts would then become RELATIVE. However, the concepts good and evil CANNOT be relative, so if God does not exist, good and evil would also not exist.
However, suppose that God doesn't exist. How come that these things we know as Good and Evil then exist today? There is a simple explanation for that. Simply that Good and Evil is equal to POWER. What is the relation with power, good and evil you ask? Normally, people would see power and these two concepts as different things, but i say that if God doesn't exist, then they are the same.
First of all, to understand what i mean, one must know what the definition of power actually is. "Power" is the ability to affect your surroundings. Only one who follows good or evil can achieve ultimate power. Good and Evil are a mindset of people. Emotion and tought form its basis. Good and Evil possess the most powerful emotion and tought. Since they possess the most powerful emotion and tought, they can affect their surroundings to its maximum.
Good would then be a "positive power". One who follows that path would affect their surroundings by living in harmony and allowing others to live in harmony with oneself, being productive (creation). Evil would then be a "negative power", disregarding other people, dominating them, being agressive (destruction). The masses would prefer Good, that would be logical, since Good benefits the masses most. Evil would be looked upon with disdain, since Evil benefits the individual most and not the masses.
People have always looked up to power and that's why terms as "Good" and "Evil" came into existence. Good and Evil are synonimous with Power. the whole point of the concepts of Good and Evil is that they are not relative, yet still so many disagree what Good and Evil is. I say that these differing opinions people have over good and evil are the IMPERFECT form of what i described above. Of course this definition of Good and Evil is only correct if God doesn't exist.
welcome to the forums jonat, you have some pretty insightful comments. hope you stick around.
