The Qur'an and/or the Bible

@fresco,

Response: Amusing. After being exposed of your own perverted ideology of condoning child abuse, we still see you fail to show anything from the Qur'an or Sunnah that is indecent or unjust. Debunked as usual.

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@Fatihah,

Try new batteries. Your machine is stuck!

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@fresco,

Response: Only in then eyes of the delusional. Thanks for clarifying.

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@Fatihah,

Hey Fatihah ! I've just noticed you've been stuck in this hole since Feb 2009. Forget the new batteries ...its too late !

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@Fatihah,

Fatihah wrote:

And yet we see your claim that forbidden girls to play with dolls pass the age of puberty was an Arab custom is supported by no evidence, thus failing to prove anything again. Secondly, Muhammad (saw) did not follow arab customs but followed the religion of islam, in which nothing in islam forbids playing with dolls after puberty and actually forbids marriage before puberty. Thus it is clear that Aisha was at the age of puberty when she was married.

Since you have not looked at the link I provided, I will put a part of it here.

Quote:

Part 1: Proof that doll-playing girls are pre-pubescent

This is what the great hadith scholar, Shaykh al-Islam Imam Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al-'Asqalani, Commander of the Faithful in Hadith, Qadi of Egypt, said regarding doll-playing and little girls:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

How do we know that Ibn Hajar made the doll-playing exegesis: “The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty”?

Because of the reference to Fateh-al-Bari and because when we look at other translations of Bukhari 8:151, the same message is conveyed.

Alternative translation 1:
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/GirlsPlayingDolls.htm

On the authority of Aisha (RA), who said: I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (SAW). And I had girl-friends (playmates) who played along with me. They would hide (feeling shy) from him (SAW) whenever he entered. But, he (SAW) would send for them to join me and they would play with me. (Sahih Bukhari & Muslim)

[The translator then provides some discussion about translations of various versions of this hadith before he follows up with Ibn Hajar and Fath-al-Bari]

Al-Haafidh Ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baaree (Fath al-Baaree, no. 6130, Kitaab: al-Adab, Baab: al-Inbisaat ilaa an-Naas): This Hadith has been used as a proof for the permissibility of possessing (suwar - of) dolls and toys for the purpose of the little girls playing with them. This has been especially exempted from the general prohibition of possession of images (suwar).

Alternative translation 2:
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=49844&dgn=4

But if these images and dolls are toys for children, the Sunnah indicates that they are permissible. In al-Saheehayn it is narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and I had female friends who would play with me…” al-Bukhaari, 6130; Muslim, 2440.

Ibn Hajar said: This hadeeth indicates that it is permissible to have images of girls (i.e., dolls) and toys for girls to play with. This is an exception from the general meaning of the prohibition on having images. This was stated by ‘Iyaad and was narrated from the majority. They permitted the sale of dolls to girls so as to teach them from a young age how to take care of their homes and children. Ibn Hibbaan stated that it is permissible for young girls to play with toys…

Alternative translation 3:
http://www.bilalphilips.com/books/eemaan/eemaan05.htm

Aaishah said, “I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (pbuh), and my girlfriends used to play along with me. Whenever, Allaah's Messenger (pbuh) would enter, they would hide from him. So he called them to play with me.”

In the classical commentary on Saheeh al-Bukhaare entitled Fat-h al-Baaree, Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalaanee wrote the following: “This hadeeth is used as evidence for the permissibility of making dolls and toys with human and animal forms for the purpose of girls playing with them. This category has been specifically excluded from the general prohibition against making images. ‘Iyaad stated this to be categorically so and related that it was the position of the majority of scholars. He further related that they permitted the selling of toys for girls in order to train them from their youth in their household affairs and in dealing with their children…”

Note the great similarity in the commentaries of Ibn Hajar in Fateh al-Bari all four versions of the hadith. The words are different because of the different translators but the essential message is unchanged – only little girls (i.e. before puberty) are permitted to play with dolls.

How do we know that little girls are pre-pubescent? Because Islamic customs and laws specifically state so.

For example:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/pillars/fasting/tajuddin/fast_21.html

Girls reach puberty and adulthood when they experience the above three signs. However, they have a fourth sign, that is, menstruation (hayd). Whenever a girl experiences it, she is a woman even if she is 12 years old.

http://www.alinaam.org.za/social/myaaisha.htm
http://www.lightuponlight.com/islam/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=151

Islam And the Age of Puberty
Islam clearly teaches that adulthood starts when a person have attained puberty.

These Islamic websites provide the evidence that in Islam, when a girl reaches puberty, she ceases to be a girl and becomes a woman. Therefore, little girls must be pre-pubescent according to Islamic customs and laws.

We also have commentaries by hadith scholars that reinforce this point.

http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/GirlsPlayingDolls.htm

Al-Qaadee 'Iyaad has stated this position with definiteness, and transmitted it as the position of the Majority (Jumhoor) of the Scholars; and that they declared permissible the selling of toys/dolls (al-lu'ab) for little girls, to train them from childhood for the household responsibilities and child-rearing.

Al-Khattaabee said: … it is understood that playing with dolls (al-banaat) is not like the amusement from other images (suwar) concerning which the threat (wa'eed) of punishment is mentioned. The only reason why permission in this was given to Aisha (RA) is because she had not, at that time, reached the age of puberty.

http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/PossessionofDolls.htm

… Abu 'Ubaid, who said: We don't see there being any reason for that (permission to play with her dolls), except due to the fact that these toys are a source of amusement (lahw) for the children. So, if they were owned by adults, it would definitely have been detestable (makhrooh).

1 Reply

@mesquite,

Response: And once again, your argument fails, for what you provided is not in the Qur'an or Sunnah. Therefore, it is not part of the religion of islam and does not prove that Aisha was under the age of puberty.

As for Aisha reching the age of puberty, verse 4:6 clearly mentions that there is an age appropriate for marriage. Verse 24:31clearly states that children are not to be exposed of nakedness of women without knowledge of a woman's private parts. Lastly, taking a wife back or divorcing them takes place after their menstruation. Therefore, such a law cannot apply to prepubescent girls, thus proving that marriage and sex takes place at the age of puberty. Debunked as usual.

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@fresco,

He's stuck in 2000 bc.

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@tenderfoot,

Not quite ...about 600 AD is more accurate ! Wink

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While the both of you are stuck in your own delusion.

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@Fatihah,

You seem to have a very limited vocabulary. Every post contains one of your three key words :"debunk,delusion,rebuttal". Have you noticed that they are merely vacuous rejoinders to the free thinking of others, and therefore serve to underscore that your own confined thinking is mechanistic? But you are never going to admit that . You are so heavily conditioned that when your cell door is thrown open you are frightened to put your head outside. The irony is that you believe the contents of your cell are the only "reality" and that others are misguided.

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@fresco,

Resonse: In other words, you still can't refute any argument presented on the topic, so you're reduced to the same delusional responses the only continue to reflect your idiocy. Thanks for the clarification.

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@Fatihah,

What argument ? Your initial request for a discussion of the "superiority" of the Koran was infantile, and even when you were indulged at that level you were soundly defeated by mesquite with respect to your selectivity from your texts.

Why not face it ? Mohammed hijacked local Judaic practices and founded his own splinter group when his claims as "prophet"were rejected by the Jews. Like Christianity, Islam is no more than another variety of monotheism serving local political, tribal and social functions. Any simplistic claim for the superiority of that version is both ridiculous and dangerous. The fact that Muslims themselves cannot agree on the details of their practices and Koranic interpretation, and murder each other over them as we speak, should tell you why you have no case.

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@fresco,

Response: In other words, after failing to refute any argument presented, thus showing superioir idiocy on the subject, you now ride the coattails of mesquite and claim that he has refuted something, yet you couldn't even provide evidence of that either. Stop embarrassing yourself.

The fact stil remains that we can prove from a hands-on eyewitness account that Muhammad(saw) did not copy any religion, as the qur'an challenge provides a hands on-eyewitness account that inspiring enough followers to conquer a nation, or just the street you live on, by using human-made speech/literature that goes against what the people want is humanly impossible, because anyone who takes the challenge will fail and not come close to answering it. And since it is clearly humanly impossible to use human-made speech/literature to achieve the act, then that means that the Qur'an that Muhammad used to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation was not the invention of any human/s, but from one who has greater power and authority than humans, and that is Allah. Debunked as usual.

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@Fatihah,

Forget about "human made speech". Where do think the practice of Halal came from if not from Jewish dietary laws ? Why do you think early Muslims prayed towards Jerusalem ?.....Where do you think fasting for atonement came from ?

Those same "eyewitnesses" testify to Mohammed's fallibilities as a man with sexual appetites and political ambitions. Any fool can select those bits of "human made speech" they want to call "evidence", and anybody with a brain knows that "religious faith" has nothing to do with "proof". "Holy books" have been rallying symbols throughout human history, one of the recent ones being "the book of Mormon" which now has millions of followers. Its a common social phenomenon....live with it !

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The Aramaeans, who inhabited what we would think of as northern Syria, were a Semitic people who became commercially adroit and spread throughout the middle east and into central Asia, reaching as far as China. When they came into contact with the Jews, those merchants adopted confessional Judaism. Their influence was so strong that Aramaic was the language of commerce in the middle east, much more important than the Koine Greek of the period before the Romans, and so it continued into the Roman period.

Having become confessional Jews, they spread the doctrine far and wide. They were particularly successful in the Arabian peninsula, so much so, that when the Aramaeans became Nestorian Christians, and began spreading that doctrine, they were not very successful in the Arabian peninsula. Prior to the time of Mohammed, confessional Judaism was the largest "non-pagan" religious practice in the Arabian peninsula. Small wonder that they adopted the practices to which Fresco refers. When, in the 2nd century of this era, the Aramaeans became Nestorian Christians, they spread that doctrine along their trade routes, although with less success than had been the case with confessional Judaism--but they did reach as far as China. That's why, in his account of his travels, Marco Polo recounts so many places in Asia in which there were Jews and Christians, as well as the inevitable "Saracens."

Like almost all religions, Islam is a mish-mash of what came before.

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@Setanta,

Quote:

Like almost all religions, Islam is a mish-mash of what came before.

Exactly !

Quote:

Circumcision was introduced to the Iranians through Islam and is a rite of obligation amongst Jews. However the practice has a long history in ancient Middle East and was closely related to the rituals dedicated to ancient gods and goddesses of fertility. Ancient Mesopotamian had festivals where the actual sex organ of a young boy was cut off and dedicated to the fertility goddess. The action was later reduced to inducing an incision instead. The blood was offered to the goddess and the occasion was celebrated publicly. In the Old Kingdom of Egypt there was a God of Circumcision to guarantee the fertility related to the river Nile, and early Egyptian myth contended that blood from circumcision of another god fell down and created the universe. In one document from ancient Egypt a man is stating that he was circumcised with 120 males and one hundred and twenty females.

Unfortunately our respondent seems to consider himself to be on a "divine mission" to plug holes in his leaky ship. Notice his "rebuttal prayer" (aka "magic spell") at the start of each post.

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@fresco,

Response: And once again, you do nothing but prove my point. Your claims that Muhammad (saw) copied from religious books comes from relying on reading other books. Thus you prove absolutely nothing, for your evidence is hearsay.

"It is humanly impossible for a person/s to inspire enough people to follow him/her to conquer a nation by using humanmande speech/literature that goes against the likes and beliefs of those people."

Now since you insist on being the idiot to claim otherwise, then prove it. Try using a speech or literature that does not agree with the likes of a majority of people that is an invention by a person/s. Then use that very same speech to inspire them to conquer a nation and see what happens. The challenge can even be simplified by asking to just conquer the street you live on and see what happens. Yet youwill fail and fail miserably. No person will come close to achieving the challenge. Any individual, when taking the challenge, will have a first-hand eyewitness account from experience and observation that such an act is humanly impossible and that is when the person will learn the miracle of Muhammad. Why? The reason is because Muhammad used the Qur'an to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation in the same fashion. So if it is humanly impossible to use speech or literature that goes against the likes of the masses to inspire them to follow a person/s and conquer a nation, yet Muhammad used the Qur'an to do just that, then what does that mean? That means that the Qur'an that Muhammad used is not the invention of any human but must come from a higher power and authority greater than humans, and that is Allah. You still disagree? Then take the challenge and prove differently. When you fail, because youwill, this will help to demonstrate that the Qur’an is of divine origin as proven by the scientific method itself because it provides a hands-on eyewitness account that producing something like the Qur’an is humanly impossible.

Evidence from a hands-on eyewitness account is more credible than your fictional hearsay. Debunked as usual.

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@Fatihah,

Glug...glug....glug...

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@Setanta,

Response: Yet the question is who "mish-mashed" it? And as the challenge of the Qur'an proves, it was not Muhammad (saw), for the qur'an challenge provides a hands on-eyewitness account that inspiring enough followers to conquer a nation, or just the street you live on, by using human-made speech/literature that goes against what the people want is humanly impossible, because anyone who takes the challenge will fail and not come close to answering it. And since it is clearly humanly impossible to use human-made speech/literature to achieve the act, then that means that the Qur'an that Muhammad used to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation was not the invention of any human/s, but from one who has greater power and authority than humans, and that is Allah.

As for the similarities between Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, they are naturally similar. Not because of copying by man, but because the teachings of each religion derive from the same source, who is Allah. The only difference being is that both Judaism and Christianity are man-made religions based on some of the teachings of Allah, while islam is divinely protected from human tampering.

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@Fatihah,

You have nothing but "human-made" literature. It is your unsubstantiated allegation that the Quran is divinely inspired--the same unsubstantiated claim made for any scripture. There is absolutely no good reason for anyone to believe that bullshit. Prove that your scripture is divinely inspired--put up, or shut up.

1 Reply

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