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Scientists speak out!

 
 
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 06:39 pm
@g-man,
g-man;57392 wrote:
That is simply "my" opinion as to what belief in these theories amounts to.


and you are entitled to those opinions but unfortunately for you it is still wrong.
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Science has the burden of providing a proof that is undeniable to make it anything other than consensus based theory.


There is no such thing, and that is what i've been trying to explain to you. All theories basically boil down to a scientific consensus, no theory has ever had any undeniable proof, and expecting such is unrealistic.

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The evidences provided by fossil record leave much to the imagination and are not proven.


again with the "not proven" bullshit, have i not explained this adequately to you? Please refer to previous statement above.

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I'm sure that will infuriate you too. But, like it or not, science has not adequately proven these issues to deserve the right to dismiss skeptics as morons and idiots.


what they propose as a replacement is very Idiotic to say the least.


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Everything. Taxpayers should not be paying for an activity that is judge as a success by the people who conduct the studies.


it's called "peer review", they do not judge their OWN data or results.

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They make all the rules.


the rules of science have been established for a very very long time.


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And provide no return.


I beg to differ, tremendous advancements have been made in the medical sector through application of evolutionary theory.



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Unimpressed. I'm assuming at this point that I've impressed upon you that I consider any science other than medical and technical are pointless and a waste of money.


-Refer to statement above-


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The list is made up of relevant items.


How is relativity more relevant than evolution? How does plate tectonics contribute to medical or technological purposes?

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I have no qualms about doing away with a tax paid education process.
It is proven to be absurd and a failure.


i've already addressed this in another thread.
g-man
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 06:51 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;57355 wrote:

1. Whats that supposed to prove anyway? Whether there is or isn't a creator that baby is gonna die anyway. Babies are typically incapable of taking care of themselves, thus why they need parents.

2. again you keep going back to origin of life, which has is irrelevant to evolution.

3. the consensus isn't proof, the consensus is merely a result of the proof/evidence.

4. The idea that humans have evolved from simple organisms has been firmly established for over a hundred years now, the DNA record is unquestionable, we have advanced so much as to understanding where and when specific genetic code mutations took place and to question whether or not this even took place at all is not only ignorant but hinders progress. Science hinges on the people's willingness to accept the conclusions and utilize the scientific discoveries. So they have good reason to get upset when people ask such silly questions.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry FF. I've been off for a few days and Sabz has hammered me with post. 1. I'm actually not trying to prove anything. I'm simply saying that minus an intelligent design, the possibility of a first living being surviving with what a random selection and a natural selection would provide it would be quite improbable.
2. Which makes evolution irrelevant.
3. Consensus is the proof. The only legitimacy proclaimable.
4. Records which are beyond the comprehension of the average person can proclaim anything the creators wish it to. Who may challenge it?
Lest they be presented with accusations of being a hindrance or silly.
0 Replies
 
g-man
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 07:00 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;57356 wrote:
Please define 'unproven'.

Seems to me ALL theories are unproven to a certain degree. Thus the reason i said calling evolution an 'unproven theory' is ignorant of how scientific theories work. Theories don't go from unproven to proven, there is no benchmark that constitutes what a proven theory is, the strength of theories is derived from the amount of evidence it has. Even using the terms proven or unproven seems silly in this respect because there is no way to categorically discern proven from unproven theories. You seem to think that Proven is the status a theory gets when it reaches some unmentioned standard.


You are right. All theories are unproven. But, this list of theories provided to me by Sabz, :
Gravitation theory
Atomic theory
Germ theory
Relativity
Quantum Physics
Cell theory
Plate Tectonics
Are theories that provide "effects" as their proofs. Unlike anything concerning evolution.
g-man
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 07:18 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;57394 wrote:

1. There is no such thing, and that is what i've been trying to explain to you. All theories basically boil down to a scientific consensus, no theory has ever had any undeniable proof, and expecting such is unrealistic.

2. again with the "not proven" bull****, have i not explained this adequately to you? Please refer to previous statement above.

3. what they propose as a replacement is very Idiotic to say the least.

4. it's called "peer review", they do not judge their OWN data or results.

5. the rules of science have been established for a very very long time.

6. I beg to differ, tremendous advancements have been made in the medical sector through application of evolutionary theory.

-Refer to statement above-

7. How is relativity more relevant than evolution? How does plate tectonics contribute to medical or technological purposes?

8. i've already addressed this in another thread.


1. And I am trying to tell you that consensus is not proof nor acceptable. Especially taking into consideration that continued financial support depends on proofs. Even the questionable method of providing consensus as the proof. It forces an environment of the need to agree.
2.
3. And I will not attack you for stating as much. Even if you can not disprove intelligent design.
4. Call it what you like. They are the ones deciding what will be written.
5. OK.
6. Such as?
7. He slipped that one in.
8. Should that mean something to me?
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 07:22 pm
@g-man,
g-man;57392 wrote:
1. That is simply "my" opinion as to what belief in these theories amounts to.
Science has the burden of providing a proof that is undeniable to make it anything other than consensus based theory. I am sorry if that fact offends you.
The fact that I did venture into the realm of evolution is quite meaningless.
The evidences provided by fossil record leave much to the imagination and are not proven. I'm sure that will infuriate you too. But, like it or not, science has not adequately proven these issues to deserve the right to dismiss skeptics as morons and idiots.


Science has no such burden. You again misunderstand. Science does one thing: uncover facts. That's it.

Please show me these "evidences" you speak of. I will be glad to clarify them.

Once again missing the point... theories aren't proven or disproven. They are changed to reflect facts as they are found. Thus they are the most accurate answers available.

Also have you thought of looking outside of the fossil record? Genetics perhaps? That entire field of science confirmed the predictions made by evolutionary theory. Genome sequencing has been of a GREAT help, leading to a lot of questions being answered.

Your lack of how science works doesn't offend me whatsoever. It's a bit disappointing, but not offensive.

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2. lol


Ever seen the churches with ATMs? Ever heard of the "700 Club"?

[UOTE]3. Everything. Taxpayers should not be paying for an activity that is judge as a success by the people who conduct the studies. They make all the rules. And provide no return. They do pat themselves on the back a lot.[/QUOTE]

Fail once again. The people who conduct the studies are NOT the judges of their success. Here's a little tidbit for ya that ought to clear things up: Richard Sternberg, a professor who was "expelled" (and included in the movie of the same name) was removed because he unethically circumvented the peer review system, putting a paper in sci-journal without the same review that all theories receive (this includes evolution BTW).

Unethically. That word has a kind of a sting to it. Kind of a "Judge as a success by the people who conduct the studies" sting. Like patting oneself on the back.

Unethically.

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4. And expect to be paid for it.


Isn't that what you do in a "career"?

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5. Unimpressed. I'm assuming at this point that I've impressed upon you that I consider any science other than medical and technical are pointless and a waste of money.


You've impressed upon me a total lack of knowledge about science and the scientific method. That's about it. It's the only reason you'd insult the scientific community like that.

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6. Not true. The list is made up of relevant items.
I have no qualms about doing away with a tax paid education process.
It is proven to be absurd and a failure.


That list is made up of theories on the same level as evolution. You're trying to backtrack... "all theories that are unproven" you said, correct?

Just as a quick example: Show me the force that is gravity. What property of mass gives it a gravitational pull? Have you seen a graviton or a gravity wave? How do you know that gravity is "proven" as you say? If that were so, we'd have flying cars, hoverboards and artificial gravity in space.

And by this very same logic, I should be able to "teach the controversy" about "Intelligent Gravitation" whereby an intelligent agency uses invisible hands to push things down.

So once again... "all unproven theories"?
0 Replies
 
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 07:30 pm
@g-man,
g-man;57397 wrote:

6. Such as?


-Paternity testing
-DNA testing
-Organ transplants
-Tamiflu (Influenza vaccine. You are aware that the reason this is needed yearly is that it's a whole new bug every go-round, right? Yes, it evolves.)
-Smallpox vaccine (The original vaccine was an infection of cowpox. This was an evolutionary cousin to smallpox, and the body's immune system were able to score a twofer with one antibody. Smallpox just had the unfortunate issue of killing the patient before the body could make said antibody.)
-Diabetes treatment (Insulin often comes from dogs, Bayetta is manufactured from saliva of the Gila Monster)
-Disease research (DNA testing of new strains is put against tests from other bacteria/viruses to see evolutionary relation... which would give a better change for certain vaccines and medicines to work)

I can provide several more Smile
0 Replies
 
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 07:38 pm
@g-man,
g-man;57396 wrote:
You are right. All theories are unproven. But, this list of theories provided to me by Sabz


Time to rock.

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Gravitation theory


What is gravity? What property of mass causes it? How is this force exerted?

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Atomic theory


Ever seen an electron? How about a photon? Are you also aware that the general representations of atoms as pictured with the rings is rather inaccurate, although much easier to explain.

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Germ theory


Though no one seriously disputes the germ theory outright, there are some who believe that it is incomplete as a theory of disease. The most commonly cited reason is the clinical inaccuracy of Koch's third postulate, which states that any susceptible animal infected with a pathogenic microbe should express symptoms. Koch himself later recanted this postulate after evidence showed asymptomatic carriers of typhoid and cholera.

Germ theory of disease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Relativity


States, for one, that any object upon reaching the speed of light, gains infinite mass. Have you ever traveled at the speed of light? Have we sent an object at this speed and measured this infinite mass increase? No? So why is this accepted?

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Quantum Physics


How many dimensions are there? Nuff said.

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Cell theory


Viruses.

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Plate Tectonics


Who saw Pangea? You also realize that this very theory is being shaken up, correct? Plate Tectonics May Grind To A Halt, Then Start Again

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Are theories that provide "effects" as their proofs. Unlike anything concerning evolution.


Really? So why are there so many unanswered questions to "proofs".

Also, might I mention that "proof" is only applicable in mathematics. There is no "proof" in science.
0 Replies
 
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 07:41 pm
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;57385 wrote:
If only our mods were around more, we might not have such rampant, petty personal attacks.


If only our mods were around more, Drnaline/Sanchez/Driven would be banned again.

Ah well.
0 Replies
 
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 07:55 pm
@g-man,
g-man;57390 wrote:
1. So, you've decided to name your god "natural selection" then go on to explain what "it" loves. Sounds oddly like an "intelligent designer".


I was making things easier to understand. Apparently not easy enough.

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2. It would seem for the purpose of remaining alive in what would likely be a hostile environment, a properly beating heart would be essential. Especially if our newly first member of life needed to wait for a second being to procreate it's race with. Just minor details of course.


Wow, ever heard of asexual reproduction? That's what the first forms of life did... life still does it to this day. Sexual reproduction came around much, much later. Also, said life didn't have hearts... again, much later down the road.

Also, what exactly defines "properly"? If an organism were born with a heart that worked better, say it was a little bit faster or a bit slower, but it was an improvement... is that an improperly beating heart?

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3. So, the eye is easy. Just this week I saw in the news the invention of an eye that will help the totally blind to see vague figures at best.
It seems the eye is merely part of the problem. Communicating signals to be translated by the brain. But, your claim covers the wonders of "natural selection and random mutation. Which one was it that figured out the translation part of the easy eye?


A completely different field of science. BBC News | Sci/Tech | Looking through cats' eyes However one that is being worked upon.

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4. Anything you like.


Well you're the one with the uncertainties. You ask the questions.

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5. Very good definition, perfectly applicable to medical and tech related sciences. Applied to evolutionary science and supported by nothing more than fossil records and consensus and imagination.


Sorry, it applies to all science equally. There is no "Oh it only applies to this!", please show me any definition that states this. You're trying to put imaginary restrictions on something to fit your views.

Sorry, doesn't work that way. And it's why you are responded to in a "hostile" manner. It's like arguing F1 racing with Schumaker. You simply look like an idiot to the knowledgeable in the end.

Seriously, please find any reference saying that the definition of the word theory above applies ONLY to certain parts of science. I will gladly await your response.

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5. Thanks.


Don't thank me, just go read a bit and straighten out your misconceptions.

That's number six, by the way.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 08:13 pm
@Sabz5150,
The alternative to evolution.....




























http://www.evilmilk.com/pictures/Ceiling_Cat.jpg
0 Replies
 
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 08:29 pm
@g-man,
g-man;57397 wrote:
1. And I am trying to tell you that consensus is not proof nor acceptable.


Never said it was. The consensus of agreement is merely an acknowledgment of the amount of evidence that a theory is supported by. Getting all scientists to agree on something is kinda like getting all politicians to agree on something, It's extremely difficult!

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Especially taking into consideration that continued financial support depends on proofs.


Whether a scientific theory is either further supported or worn away by new data has no bearing on their funds.


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And I will not attack you for stating as much. Even if you can not disprove intelligent design.


No need to. There is no evidence to begin with...

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Call it what you like. They are the ones deciding what will be written.


yes, point being? You make it sound as if it is some form of self-advertisement. Everything in science must be capable of being repeatedly independently verified.

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Such as?


Antibiotics

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He slipped that one in.


and plate tectonics?
0 Replies
 
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 08:37 pm
@g-man,
g-man;57396 wrote:

Are theories that provide "effects" as their proofs. Unlike anything concerning evolution.


Vestigial structures are an 'effect' of evolution and Junk DNA is an 'effect' of evolution. :thumbup:
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2008 04:12 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;57405 wrote:
Vestigial structures are an 'effect' of evolution and Junk DNA is an 'effect' of evolution. :thumbup:


Hiccups are an effect of evolution. CCR5D32 is an effect of evolution. Chromosome 2 is an effect of evolution. Speciation is an effect of evolution.
0 Replies
 
 

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