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Irreducible Complexity Refuted!

 
 
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 05:12 am
@DiversityDriven,
DiversityDriven;54686 wrote:
Please provide a link from a reputable source stating so.


Evolution as theory and fact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's real simple and stated in the link rather simply...

Fruit flies changing generation to generation is an observation of generational organism change.

Organisms changing generation to generation is called evolution.

Evolution is a fact.


Remember what a fact is. It's an objective and verifiable observation. All of which is supplied in the simple statement above. The theory of evolution is the explanation of evolution's collective facts.

Quote:
Then you should have a lab name, maybe the scientist's name who observed this and was it repeatable?


Experimentally Created Incipient Species of Drosophila

THEODOSIUS DOBZHANSKY & OLGA PAVLOVSKY

The Rockefeller University, New York City, New York 10021

Quote:
So is it fact or an opinion? By saying "cannot be directly observed yet" the answer would be "opinion"


Things do not need to be directly observed if the effects can be accurately measured. We do not need to directly observe star birth to know it's happening. We do not need to directly observe gravity to know jumping off a building is bad.
DiversityDriven
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Mar, 2008 06:36 pm
@Sabz5150,
Sabz5150;54713 wrote:
Evolution as theory and fact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's real simple and stated in the link rather simply...

Fruit flies changing generation to generation is an observation of generational organism change.

Organisms changing generation to generation is called evolution.

Evolution is a fact.


Remember what a fact is. It's an objective and verifiable observation. All of which is supplied in the simple statement above. The theory of evolution is the explanation of evolution's collective facts.



Experimentally Created Incipient Species of Drosophila

THEODOSIUS DOBZHANSKY & OLGA PAVLOVSKY

The Rockefeller University, New York City, New York 10021



Things do not need to be directly observed if the effects can be accurately measured. We do not need to directly observe star birth to know it's happening. We do not need to directly observe gravity to know jumping off a building is bad.
I said reputable source, please.
Quote:
Remember what a fact is. It's an objective and verifiable observation.
Key word, "objective" Of which you are not, you are biased twards Darwin, hence not objective. And as you know, observations are like assholes. Every body has one.
Quote:
Things do not need to be directly observed
What is a fact again?
DiversityDriven
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Mar, 2008 06:44 pm
@Sabz5150,
Sabz5150;54713 wrote:
Evolution as theory and fact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's real simple and stated in the link rather simply...

Fruit flies changing generation to generation is an observation of generational organism change.

Organisms changing generation to generation is called evolution.

Evolution is a fact.


Remember what a fact is. It's an objective and verifiable observation. All of which is supplied in the simple statement above. The theory of evolution is the explanation of evolution's collective facts.



Experimentally Created Incipient Species of Drosophila

THEODOSIUS DOBZHANSKY & OLGA PAVLOVSKY

The Rockefeller University, New York City, New York 10021



Things do not need to be directly observed if the effects can be accurately measured. We do not need to directly observe star birth to know it's happening. We do not need to directly observe gravity to know jumping off a building is bad.
I said reputable source, please.
Quote:
Remember what a fact is. It's an objective and verifiable observation.
Key word, "objective" Of which you are not, you are biased twards Darwin, hence not objective. And as you know, observations are like assholes. Every body has one.
Quote:
Experimentally Created Incipient Species of Drosophila

THEODOSIUS DOBZHANSKY & OLGA PAVLOVSKY

The Rockefeller University, New York City, New York 10021
So do you have faith in his conclusion? Put it another way, do you believe his opinion of what he observed?
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2008 05:10 am
@DiversityDriven,
DiversityDriven;54886 wrote:
I said reputable source, please.


You obviously didn't look. I mean BLINDINGLY obvious.

That "source" contains twenty-four links for different sources. I'd love for you to refute them all. One by one.

Quote:
Key word, "objective" Of which you are not, you are biased twards Darwin, hence not objective. And as you know, observations are like ***s. Every body has one.


If that's the case, neither are you... you are HEAVILY biased towards this whole "creator" thing.

Now, let's look at the word 'objective'. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Objectivity in science is the property of scientific measurement that can be tested independent from the individual scientist (the subject) who proposes them. It is intimately related to the aim of verifiability and reproducibility. To be properly considered objective, the results of measurement must be communicated from person-to-person, and then demonstrated for third parties, as an advance in understanding of the objective world. Such demonstrable knowledge would ordinarily confer demonstrable powers of prediction or technological construction.

To be objective simply means the ability to verify, demonstrate and reproduce your findings. If you say mixing red and blue light makes purple light, I should be able to make a device that does this (which is simple to do).

Are the findings in the video objective? Absolutely. They are easily verifiable and can be easily reproduced. Any scientist (or anyone for that matter) could observe the same findings that are shown here.

Quote:
So do you have faith in his conclusion? Put it another way, do you believe his opinion of what he observed?


Do you believe the Bible? Put another way, do you believe that opinion of the world?

See, the trick is this. There is no need for faith in his conclusion (nice attempt at Creationist spin BTW), because these findings are available from many sources and from many scientists. That guy, he's showing off these findings. Was he the first one to discover this evolutionary link? Probably not. That information had to pass through the complete scientific method and peer review BEFORE it were considered an objective fact.

Where's Irreducible Complexity's peer review? Has it passed through the same gauntlet? Has Intelligent Design done the same? Why not?

Why is the only thing I am hearing is "I don't like those links!" and "That's just opinion!"? You're losing a whole lotta ground here. Not one bit of debate or counter argument. Just a lot of finger pointing and speculation.

Is this all? Again, I was expecting a hair of a challenge.
0 Replies
 
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2008 05:28 am
@DiversityDriven,
DiversityDriven;54885 wrote:
What is a fact again?


I gotta tackle this one too.

In the most basic sense, a scientific fact is an objective and verifiable observation

Coming back to this one again. An objective and verifiable observation. Show me where the word "DIRECT" is in that sentence. Again, this stems from a complete lack of science education. You do not have to observe an object DIRECTLY to make a factual observation.

Simple example: If I put the kettle on the stove and turn on the heat for a few minutes, you know the water inside is hot. How so? How do you know that water is actually hot without moving the kettle or sticking your finger or other measuring device inside it?

Scientific translation: How do you know this fact without a DIRECT observation of the phenomena in question? Putting your hand on the kettle isn't measuring the temperature of the water, but it does a damn good job at telling you how hot the kettle is.

So how do you know the water is hot without taking direct measurements of it? Indirect observation. The answer is this: Put your hand on the kettle two minutes later. Ouch! Still hot! But the heat's off. That energy has to be coming from somewhere, and the only source is what's inside. Coupled with knowledge of energy transfer (thermal via conduction), you can state in an objective and verifiable means that the water inside is hot without ever seeing or measuring the water DIRECTLY.

Science. It works, bitches.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2008 01:33 pm
@DiversityDriven,
DiversityDriven;54885 wrote:
I said reputable source, please.


So Wiki isn't reputable enough? You realize Wiki often steals it's info from other encyclopedias, often word-for-word.

Quote:
Key word, "objective" Of which you are not, you are biased twards Darwin, hence not objective.


Everybody has some bias.

Quote:
And as you know, observations are like assholes. Every body has one.What is a fact again?


I believe the saying is "Opinions are like assholes- everybody has one!"

Opinions and observations are NOT synonyms.
0 Replies
 
DiversityDriven
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 10:21 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Quote:
So Wiki isn't reputable enough? You realize Wiki often steals it's info from other encyclopedias, often word-for-word.
I rest my case. And i quote "You realize Wiki often steals it's info from other encyclopedias" And you still insinuate they are reputable?
Quote:
Everybody has some bias.
Some bias doesn't cut it. objectionable means no bias!
Quote:
I believe the saying is "Opinions are like assholes- everybody has one!"

Opinions and observations are NOT synonyms.
An opinion is an observation.
DiversityDriven
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 10:23 am
@Sabz5150,
Sabz5150;54899 wrote:
I gotta tackle this one too.

In the most basic sense, a scientific fact is an objective and verifiable observation

Coming back to this one again. An objective and verifiable observation. Show me where the word "DIRECT" is in that sentence. Again, this stems from a complete lack of science education. You do not have to observe an object DIRECTLY to make a factual observation.

Simple example: If I put the kettle on the stove and turn on the heat for a few minutes, you know the water inside is hot. How so? How do you know that water is actually hot without moving the kettle or sticking your finger or other measuring device inside it?

Scientific translation: How do you know this fact without a DIRECT observation of the phenomena in question? Putting your hand on the kettle isn't measuring the temperature of the water, but it does a damn good job at telling you how hot the kettle is.

So how do you know the water is hot without taking direct measurements of it? Indirect observation. The answer is this: Put your hand on the kettle two minutes later. Ouch! Still hot! But the heat's off. That energy has to be coming from somewhere, and the only source is what's inside. Coupled with knowledge of energy transfer (thermal via conduction), you can state in an objective and verifiable means that the water inside is hot without ever seeing or measuring the water DIRECTLY.

Science. It works, bitches.

And i bet you think your objective?
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 11:04 am
@DiversityDriven,
DiversityDriven;55103 wrote:
I rest my case. And i quote "You realize Wiki often steals it's info from other encyclopedias" And you still insinuate they are reputable?


yes, because they have identical information to reputable non-bias sources



Quote:
Some bias doesn't cut it. objectionable means no bias!


name one person who isn't bias.

Quote:
An opinion is an observation.


so when i say that i think rap music sucks, this is actually an observation?
0 Replies
 
DiversityDriven
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2008 09:07 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Quote:
yes, because they have identical information to reputable non-bias sources
It doesn't make them reputable, it makes them thieves.
Quote:
so when i say that i think rap music sucks, this is actually an observation?
Yup, it's an observation to you and any body else who believes you.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2008 03:42 pm
@DiversityDriven,
DiversityDriven;55146 wrote:
It doesn't make them reputable, it makes them thieves.


Well of course they have their permission, so it's not really stealing in the literal sense. The fact remains Wiki is no less reliable than other sources you may use.


Quote:
Yup, it's an observation to you and any body else who believes you.


I'm pretty sure observations have something to do with using your eyes. :eek:

observe: Definition, Synonyms and Much More from Answers.com
0 Replies
 
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2008 05:16 am
@DiversityDriven,
DiversityDriven;55104 wrote:
And i bet you think your objective?


A bit more than you. I trust what has evidence behind it. I trust what I can reproduce myself and observe by myself.

I haven't fallen into a circular argument.

So, are you actually going to debate the topic here, or are you just gonna blabber on and try to dodge it completely?
0 Replies
 
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2008 07:06 am
@DiversityDriven,
DiversityDriven;55103 wrote:
An opinion is an observation.


The creationist fails again.

An opinion is a person's ideas and thoughts towards something. It is an assessment, judgment or evaluation of something. An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are either not falsifiable, or the opinion has not been proven or verified.

A scientific fact is an objective and verifiable observation

So from these two we get...

A fact is an observation.

An opinion is not a fact.

Ergo, an opinion is not an observation.

Did you make it through middle school by chance?
0 Replies
 
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2008 07:12 am
@DiversityDriven,
DiversityDriven;55103 wrote:
Some bias doesn't cut it.


That knocks you outta the race doesn't it, homeslice.
0 Replies
 
 

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