Christian Morality

@wvpeach,

wvpeach;33507 wrote:

Campbell

We have the best military in the world. We are well able to close down our borders, put the air force patroling the skies and deport all illegals that might even think about being a terroist, they are after all illegals here.

We can defend this country very well right here at home and not have to worry about being attacked.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on what Jesus might have to say about the fact we could have just hunkered down and defended ourselfs, instead of war in another country thousands of miles from our home land ? I really am interested in what you think Jesus would say about that choice?

Lets go back one verse in Romans campbell

Romans 12: 17 & 18

Recompense no man evil for evil, Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

verse 18: If it be possible as much as lieth in you , live peaceable with all men

Verse 19: Dearly beloved , avenge not yourself's, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, vengence is mine, I will repay saith the Lord.

Verse 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst give him drink, for in doing so you heap heap coals of fire on his head.

Verse 21 Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

No where in these verses that you started to quote , but did not complete do I see Paul suggesting that we have the right to kill our enemies.

Well I donot think trying to defend one's self is always evil. That can be debated. We had a good military just before Peral Harbor. And as a nation we did everything to stay out of that conflict. The world is far more dangerous that it was back then. If you believe that we can ignore the intentions of our enemies and we are going to be safe you will discover you are mistaken. This war will not go away. Even if you bring the troops home. These's people hate America and Americans. This cancer will grow and it will strike the homeland no matter how good you think our army is. We cannot even secure our border today. The Bible clearly states IF POSSIBLE live peaceable. That is the ideal, but it is not always possible. God never intended for us to watch evil men kill our children and have us sit by and watch. Sometimes you have to act to prevent the greater evil. If we had not acted in World War II, we would all be speaking German today.

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@aaronssongs,

aaronssongs;33539 wrote:

You know, most presidents kinda "man up", when they come into office...Clinton didn't complain about Papa Bush...Reagan didn't complain about Carter...Carter didn't complain about Ford.
George Bush, wimp that he is, can only blame Clinton for his own failings, and never admit responsibility in anything. Well, the one thing Clinton didn't do is f... up this war....George Bush and Co. did that one all by their selves.

Clinton did not have to complain about Papa Bush because he handed him one of the best Armies in the world, and an intelgence agency that was top notch. It was Clintons stupid polices that blinded our nations ability to see 911 coming. It was Bush that got the agencies back working again. It was sad to see those T.V. comericals asking for people who speak the Islamic lanague to consider a career working for the CIA. That's what this country was reduced to. The fact was Bill Clinton was more worried about his activities in the White House, than our National Security.

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@Campbell34,

Campbell34;33475 wrote:

The Bush administration was going on the information gathered from the previous 8 years of the past administration. That information was flawed because the previous president slashed Americas inteligence agencies budget by billions of dollars, and felt that money was better served for domestic projects. Most of the senior members of the CIA were either force out of their jobs, or quit in disgust. America was blinded because of the polices of the Clinton administration. When Bush came into office there were only two people in the CIA who could even read Arabic. That's right, two people were the only one's avaiable to read the tens of thousands of messages coming out of the Middle East. Bush has changed that, but that does not help the thousands that were killed in the World Trade Center.
I never said I supported this war, if I had gone to war it never would of been fought this way. War is not pretty, nor is it always done perfectly.

Bull CaCa. Clinton, when he came into office did not blame Papa Bush for all the ills he faced, and set out with a new agenda, as any president does....What does Georgie Porgie do, but blame any of his failures on the previous administration...and not even on what his own father failed to do....
As Condoleeza Rice admitted in her congressional hearings concerning 9/11, intel came in that attacks were imminent, and they chose to disregard them as hearsay...they could have easily beefed up the actionable deficiencies in the CIA, FBI, but chose not to...blame only goes so far...and the buck stops with the president sitting in the chair, at the present moment....Bill C. is still as popular as ever.

1 Reply

@Campbell34,

Campbell34;33861 wrote:

Clinton did not have to complain about Papa Bush because he handed him one of the best Armies in the world, and an intelgence agency that was top notch. It was Clintons stupid polices that blinded our nations ability to see 911 coming. It was Bush that got the agencies back working again. It was sad to see those T.V. comericals asking for people who speak the Islamic lanague to consider a career working for the CIA. That's what this country was reduced to. The fact was Bill Clinton was more worried about his activities in the White House, than our National Security.

SPIN.....all that you have said is hearsay, and untrue....where is the documentation ( as folk are apt to say)?
The truth of the matter is that George Bush is the most incompetent, ignorant, ill-equipped president, ever. He couldn't think his way out of a lecture.
In fact, everyone is confident of the fact that it is Cheney who is the de facto president...and has been pulling the puppet strings , from day one.
Erstwhile, why is Rove known as "Bush's Brain"...it's because he doesn't possess one.

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@Campbell34,

Campbell34;33861 wrote:

Clinton did not have to complain about Papa Bush because he handed hi..........

C'mon Campbell, **** it, I forgot the best about you.:banghead:

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@Campbell34,

Campbell34;33859 wrote:

Well I donot think trying to defend one's self is always evil. That can be debated. We had a good military just before Peral Harbor. And as a nation we did everything to stay out of that conflict. The world is far more dangerous that it was back then. If you believe that we can ignore the intentions of our enemies and we are going to be safe you will discover you are mistaken. This war will not go away. Even if you bring the troops home. These's people hate America and Americans. This cancer will grow and it will strike the homeland no matter how good you think our army is. We cannot even secure our border today. The Bible clearly states IF POSSIBLE live peaceable. That is the ideal, but it is not always possible. God never intended for us to watch evil men kill our children and have us sit by and watch. Sometimes you have to act to prevent the greater evil. If we had not acted in World War II, we would all be speaking German today.

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@FedUpAmerican,

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

What he said!

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@FedUpAmerican,

The teachings of Christ do focus on the principle of love - even for one's enemies. I think all Christians share a common bond concerning war and violence. No one likes it. Least of all me. I have a grandson that is 17 years old and is planning on joining the Marines. He will probably have to go to war.

We live in a world that is dominated by greed. We also have competing ideologies. Even those of us who believe in Christ as our Savior have conflicting views. It's all in translation.

Peach - you quote Romans 13 to justify your position. I can also quote it to justify mine.

It is in this chapter that Paul is teaching that as Christians we are to support our civil government. Notice in verse 18 the words "if it is possible". We need to try as Christians to have peace and not have hate or vengeance dictate our actions. But we also must make all efforts when it comes to self-defense. 9/11 dictated that.

God does give civil governments authority here on earth.

We have physical warfare here on this earth because there is a spiritual war going on. If you believe in the Bible and in Christ then you must also believe in Lucifer.

Please quote a few more scriptures so that I can show you a different perspective!

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@wvpeach,

Campbell :dunno: :dunno:

Please read this post I have quoted in part again.

I ask again, what do you think Jesus will say about us failing to just secure our own country?

We still have not secured our own country !

We are able to do that as opposed to invading another country and causing the deaths of thousands of people.

wvpeach;33507 wrote:

Campbell

We have the best military in the world. We are well able to close down our borders, put the air force patroling the skies and deport all illegals that might even think about being a terroist, they are after all illegals here.

We can defend this country very well right here at home and not have to worry about being attacked.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on what Jesus might have to say about the fact we could have just hunkered down and defended ourselfs, instead of war in another country thousands of miles from our home land ? I really am interested in what you think Jesus would say about that choice?

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@Campbell34,

Are you saying we cannot secure our borders campbell?

I don't know who told you that, but those borders could be secured.

Campbell34;33859 wrote:

Well I donot think trying to defend one's self is always evil. That can be debated. We had a good military just before Peral Harbor. And as a nation we did everything to stay out of that conflict. The world is far more dangerous that it was back then. If you believe that we can ignore the intentions of our enemies and we are going to be safe you will discover you are mistaken. This war will not go away. Even if you bring the troops home. These's people hate America and Americans. This cancer will grow and it will strike the homeland no matter how good you think our army is. We cannot even secure our border today. The Bible clearly states IF POSSIBLE live peaceable. That is the ideal, but it is not always possible. God never intended for us to watch evil men kill our children and have us sit by and watch. Sometimes you have to act to prevent the greater evil. If we had not acted in World War II, we would all be speaking German today.

1 Reply

@Campbell34,

What scriptures would you like me to quote western mom?

Nothing Jesus ever said as recorded in the bible gives us the right to pre emptively strike against our enemies.

I agree its human nature to defend ones own. The key word being DEFEND

I open the challenge for you to show me anywhere in the New Testament that Jesus okayed pre emptive wars.

1 Reply

@FedUpAmerican,

FedUp,

You are wanting to hold Christian's feet to the fire about all of our supposed moral superiority...

I look at it this way. I told my kids that getting straight A's in school was a goal that was attainable and should be desirable to them. This was setting the bar very high for them but by doing so they knew that what was hoped for.

Did they do it? I have a daughter that graduated from college with one A-, or 3.98 gpa. Another that graduated with fairly close to that but was also involved in many, many extra-curricular activities as well as holding down a couple of jobs. Another that was just barely above 3.0 and another son and daughter that passed up scholarships and decided to go straight into marriage and the workforce. Both are successful.

My point being: None of them graduated from college with a 4.0. They generally worked hard to attain their goals and gained much from doing so. They knew what was expected of them - mainly don't goof off your chances to do well! Some even chose different directions and paths. Some the road has been a little bumpier than for others due to their own choices.

But, by setting a high standard to work toward they found joy and happiness in most areas of their lives and have also found great success. If they had been taught to only acheive a passing grade they might not be doing so well.

It's much the same with Christians. We have high standards that have been set for us. Most of us fall short of our goals. But, at least we have the bar raised in the beginning so that we will make every effort to do well in this life. Like in school, some subjects are just harder to master than others for most of us.

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@Campbell34,

western Mom

I think falling short of the goal of not taking human life is about as big a failure as a christian could have.

Goals you say. You should be talking about SIN instead of goals.

Its a sin to kill when you could just protect yourself, and the US can just protect our country. For some reason the borders are still wide open and we are sitting ducks for another attack, but we could close the border down, deport some people and be free from the worry of terroism.

Its also a sin to cheer on the people who are doing the killing and we know that Christ said to even think about it was the same as doing it.

I can say i have never wanted to see a human die to keep my own behind safe. That is not a sin I am quilty of.

How about you western mom?

1 Reply

@wvpeach,

wvpeach;33915 wrote:

What scriptures would you like me to quote western mom?

Nothing Jesus ever said as recorded in the bible gives us the right to pre emptively strike against our enemies.

I agree its human nature to defend ones own. The key word being DEFEND

I open the challenge for you to show me anywhere in the New Testament that Jesus okayed pre emptive wars.

Do you not believe in the Old Testament as well?

I might not be as smart, wise, well-educated, well-informed, literate, etc. and most of you here on this board but I have my own opinions on the war with Iraq.

You are all so quick to jump to the conclusion that Bush lied, covered up, hid, destroyed, etc. just to go to war with Saddam. Why not believe that Saddam did things things as well? Why was he so innocent but Bush so deceiving? Did you feel the same about Kosovo?

1 Reply

@wvpeach,

wvpeach;33927 wrote:

western Mom

I think falling short of the goal of not taking human life is about as big a failure as a christian could have.

Goals you say. You should be talking about SIN instead of goals.

Its a sin to kill when you could just protect yourself, and the US can just protect our country. For some reason the borders are still wide open and we are sitting ducks for another attack, but we could close the border down, deport some people and be free from the worry of terroism.

Its also a sin to cheer on the people who are doing the killing and we know that Christ said to even think about it was the same as doing it.

I can say i have never wanted to see a human die to keep my own behind safe. That is not a sin I am quilty of.

How about you western mom?

Oh how naive. "be free from the worry of terroism" I won't even stoop to try to debate that one...

I can say i have never wanted to see a human die to keep my own behind safe. That is not a sin I am quilty of.

What do you think the firefighters, police, soldiers, past patriots, American revolunists, my uncle in WW2 do and did for you every day???

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@westernmom,

Yes I believe in the old testament. I also know that Christ came to give us a New testament. Christ taught only love, forgiveness, and turning the other cheek. Its convienant how people who call themself's christians forget this fact. I could never vote for a war monger, precisely because I am a christian, and I have to call into question just how much Bush actually knows about the teachings of Christ to have started this preemptive war.

Yes Western mom we certainly can close down our borders and for pennies on the dollars that have been spent in Iraq.
Try a fence, easy and fairly cheap to build.

Military bases built along the borders and then troops to patrol and guard them. :headbang:

The minute men make a big dent in border crossings out there and they are few. I certainly think the US military the biggest and best in the world can manage to close our borders and keep them secure.

Your arguements against this border being secure and for christians backing the killing of people 1/2 a world away make no sense at all. And argueing that people in public service like policemen and presidents put their lives on the line every day has nothing to do with a war where we know as they say
"collateral damage" which means innocent people will die. Watch the BBC News they show pictures of dead Iraqi children reguarly on the news there, something US news shows are not allowed to do.

Children and their mothers, dead. Bodies buried in huge common graves , this is what is happening in Iraq and this time its not saddam who's responsible for it , its the US and anybody who supports us being there, and this admisinistration will answer to God for their sins.

I pray for folks like you, but know if you read the book the world is only going to get worse. Just don't be found on the wrong side when the end comes western mom , and right now you are not on the side of the teachings of Christ.

Christ would not advocate the killing of now hundreds of thousands in Iraq because some planes and bad people killed 3000 in the US. :dunno: :dunno:

westernmom;33932 wrote:

Do you not believe in the Old Testament as well?

I might not be as smart, wise, well-educated, well-informed, literate, etc. and most of you here on this board but I have my own opinions on the war with Iraq.

You are all so quick to jump to the conclusion that Bush lied, covered up, hid, destroyed, etc. just to go to war with Saddam. Why not believe that Saddam did things things as well? Why was he so innocent but Bush so deceiving? Did you feel the same about Kosovo?

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@FedUpAmerican,

I have never said I am not for a fence on the border. But mark my words, that would not be the end of terrorism!

Preemptive is only your judgement...

And you are the very "Christians" that most are afraid of because you pass judgement on others, like me, saying that I am not on the side of Christ. Who are you to judge that? Will you be sitting on the dias next to Christ whispering in his ear? I highly doubt it.

Also, please don't pray for me. I am very capable of doing so for myself.
I don't just "read" the book... I read, study, ponder and pray. With that comes understanding and insight and action.

In the New Testament:

Matthew 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Meaning Christ came to bring peace between people and God. But the inevitable result of Jesus' coming is conflict between good and evil here on this earth.

Luke 22:36-38 "If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." Jesus was warning his disciples of bad times to come. The would need to take defensive actions!

John 2:15 "So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area..." Christ violently drove the money changers away from the temple in a preemptive action! Physical force was involved. He waged war on them!

Yes, Christ told us to turn the other cheek "When someone strikes you on the cheek" but what about a more serious injury than a slap? Also Christ didn't stand there meekly when he was slapped, but protested boldly.

Loving your enemies doesn't mean letting them avoid punishment for wrongdoing.

But you would have Saddam continue his killing rampages?

1 Reply

@westernmom,

westernmom;33938 wrote:

But you would have Saddam continue his killing rampages?

But YOU would have bush continue his?

Since he's an American (a fact that I am ashamed of) that CLAIMS to be a Christian, thats OK though?

bush is a bigger terrorist than Saddam and Bin Laden combined could ever dream of being.

1 Reply

@FedUpAmerican,

FedUpAmerican;33939 wrote:

But YOU would have bush continue his?

Since he's an American (a fact that I am ashamed of) that CLAIMS to be a Christian, thats OK though?

bush is a bigger terrorist than Saddam and Bin Laden combined could ever dream of being.

I disagree. And, I suppose you love the Dixie Chicks!

1 Reply

@Campbell34,

western Mom

read Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life , shall lose it, and he that looseth his life for my sake shall find it.

I applaud you finding verses that if taken out of context make it appear the Lord was saying living by the sword was okay.

But you really do have to read the whole chapter , verse and even the book.

Go on and read Matthew 26:52 for all they that take the sword shall perish by the sword.

You'll recall that this happened as Christ was being led away to his death, but he told his followers to put away their swords and healed the man they had injured on his behalf.

You'll also recall jesus telling us to be perfect even as our father in heaven was perfect. And numerous places in the bible where we are told that we are to follow Christ's example. Which yes Christ got angry a few times on earth, but he certainly never killed anybody and all his teachings were against hurting anybody , under any condition. Christ taught Love , and nothing but Love. People are dillusional just like the pharsees and saducees were when the crusified the Lord if they think they can justify killing in a preemptive war and still say they are followers of christ.

Forgive seven times seventy, turn the other cheek, do not repay evil for evil.

I'll tell you what western mom feel free to pray for me, this country or anything else you want to pray for, as I will continue to pray for you.

Being a bit childish in that stance aren't you? personally I will take all the prayers I can get. But then again I am a follower of Christ one who understands prayer is a powerful thing. And one who try's in all ways to follow the teachings of christ. He did not teach about war he taught Love for even our enemies!

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