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Why deny man immortality

 
 
Greatest I am cv
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2007 08:18 am
@Volunteer,
Christ means redeemer. To believe in Jesus Christ is to believe that Jesus forgave all sin with his death thus ending Hell.
We are all saved by His act. That is what being Christian is supposed to mean. Many Christians are still waiting to be saved and do not give Jesus the Christ the credit for redeeming the world. They are still waiting for some kind of end time redemption.

How they justify this belief in Jesus without giving Him the credit for redemption is demonstrated by non logical arguments that are at some times funny and at other times sad.

People have a hard time burying the carrot and stick approach to life.
Jesus got rid of the stick but many do not want to let go of might is right notions.

Regards
DL
markx15
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2007 08:37 am
@Greatest I am cv,
Pino I have always missed the point of christianity, that is why I am not christian. Don't worry about being blunt, worry about being accurate, you were. I don't get it, please explain it to me. I guess my main problem is people saying that everyone other than christ is a false prophet, even the ones who don't take the title. My lack of understanding in Jesus worship does not impede me from enjoying his teachings, why does worshipping christ stop christians from recieving teachings from anywhere else? When I read the most diverse authors, many considered great men among their followers, I see diferent words and situations, but I see the same spirit. The spirit of benevolance, the spirit of understanding, the spirit of compassion.

Greatest, to me the "end time" is when we (all humanity) live harmoniously with the laws of God, not man. It doesn't make any good movies, but I see a happy ending, not more carnage.
Greatest I am cv
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2007 09:01 am
@markx15,
markx15;25329 wrote:
Pino I have always missed the point of christianity, that is why I am not christian. Don't worry about being blunt, worry about being accurate, you were. I don't get it, please explain it to me. I guess my main problem is people saying that everyone other than christ is a false prophet, even the ones who don't take the title. My lack of understanding in Jesus worship does not impede me from enjoying his teachings, why does worshipping christ stop christians from recieving teachings from anywhere else? When I read the most diverse authors, many considered great men among their followers, I see diferent words and situations, but I see the same spirit. The spirit of benevolance, the spirit of understanding, the spirit of compassion.

Greatest, to me the "end time" is when we (all humanity) live harmoniously with the laws of God, not man. It doesn't make any good movies, but I see a happy ending, not more carnage.


To believe ii God, you must believe that He has already set up where we live by His law.
We could have had harmony in the garden of ignorance and rejected ignorance and lack of knowledge. Thank God.

Life is good and indeed Perfect as we speak, otherwise there is no God. God would not tolerate a failed works. All of His works, we are told, are Perfect. Look for this Perfection and you will see it. Some do.
As to Jesus being the way, I would agree that wisdom comes from diverse places. Jesus is a way, not the way.
Jesus said that the end was at hand. I believe Him. It was in the past.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Campbell34
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2007 09:42 am
@markx15,
markx15;25329 wrote:
Pino I have always missed the point of christianity, that is why I am not christian. Don't worry about being blunt, worry about being accurate, you were. I don't get it, please explain it to me. I guess my main problem is people saying that everyone other than christ is a false prophet, even the ones who don't take the title. My lack of understanding in Jesus worship does not impede me from enjoying his teachings, why does worshipping christ stop christians from recieving teachings from anywhere else? When I read the most diverse authors, many considered great men among their followers, I see diferent words and situations, but I see the same spirit. The spirit of benevolance, the spirit of understanding, the spirit of compassion.

Greatest, to me the "end time" is when we (all humanity) live harmoniously with the laws of God, not man. It doesn't make any good movies, but I see a happy ending, not more carnage.


All I will say is once you understand who Jesus is, and that He alone has the power to forgive sin, then these other teachers no matter how much compassion or understanding they have, are pretty much in the same boat as the rest of us. On the last day, we will not stand before these other teachers, we will stand before Christ. I can tell you, Jesus Christ is not like some old historical figure that was wise in his own time. This Jesus is alive. I know this, because from time to time He speaks to even me. He really is like a friend, and there are times when He will step forward to defend you, and other times He will inform you of future events, and other times He tells you He loves you. I can say all of this, because He has done all of this with me.
There will be a happy ending someday, but before that day comes evil will increase. According to the Scriptures many nations of the world will rise up near the time of the end to drive the Jews out of Israel. God allowed the Jews to return to Israel for that purpose. God tells us He will allow them to return but not for their sakes, because they polluted His name where ever they wandered. God tells us He will allow them to return to defend them when the nations try to drive them out of their land, and by doing this, the nations of the world we see not only God's power, they will know who God is, and they will know that the stories of the Bible were true. And the Jews will know the name of their God, and in that day the Bible tells us the Jewish people will be very upset when they see who He is.
rugonnacry
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2007 09:46 am
@Greatest I am cv,
The bible correctly translated says Jesus will return at the end of the age, not the end of time. The end of the age by any predated callender is 2150 (Age of Aquarius) A new God will allegedly emmerge and this will all start again. To live to the yr 2150 just to see if this is the case.
Greatest I am cv
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2007 10:03 am
@Campbell34,
Campbell34;25339 wrote:
All I will say is once you understand who Jesus is, and that He alone has the power to forgive sin, then these other teachers no matter how much compassion or understanding they have, are pretty much in the same boat as the rest of us. On the last day, we will not stand before these other teachers, we will stand before Christ. I can tell you, Jesus Christ is not like some old historical figure that was wise in his own time. This Jesus is alive. I know this, because from time to time He speaks to even me. He really is like a friend, and there are times when He will step forward to defend you, and other times He will inform you of future events, and other times He tells you He loves you. I can say all of this, because He has done all of this with me.
There will be a happy ending someday, but before that day comes evil will increase. According to the Scriptures many nations of the world will rise up near the time of the end to drive the Jews out of Israel. God allowed the Jews to return to Israel for that purpose. God tells us He will allow them to return but not for their sakes, because they polluted His name where ever they wandered. God tells us He will allow them to return to defend them when the nations try to drive them out of their land, and by doing this, the nations of the world we see not only God's power, they will know who God is, and they will know that the stories of the Bible were true. And the Jews will know the name of their God, and in that day the Bible tells us the Jewish people will be very upset when they see who He is.


Especially if it is a talking snake.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2007 11:20 am
@rugonnacry,
rugonnacry;25341 wrote:
The bible correctly translated says Jesus will return at the end of the age, not the end of time. The end of the age by any predated callender is 2150 (Age of Aquarius) A new God will allegedly emmerge and this will all start again. To live to the yr 2150 just to see if this is the case.


Source?... As far as I know, the story goes that Jesus will rule for 1,000 years.
0 Replies
 
Campbell34
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2007 11:50 am
@rugonnacry,
rugonnacry;25341 wrote:
The bible correctly translated says Jesus will return at the end of the age, not the end of time. The end of the age by any predated callender is 2150 (Age of Aquarius) A new God will allegedly emmerge and this will all start again. To live to the yr 2150 just to see if this is the case.


I always say the end of time but the end of the age may be more accurate. According to Jesus, the generation that sees the fig tree shoot forth its branches will not pass away until all end time prophecies will be fulfilled.
Israel in Scripture is described as a fig tree. It is believed by many students of the Bible that the rebirth of Israel in 1948 was the fulfillment of that prophecy. In Zac.12 it indicates that when the Jews would return they would retake Juda first which they did in 1948, (southern Israel) and they would retake Jerusalem second which they did in 1967. It is also stated in the Scriptures that Jerusalems East Gate, would have a porch gate that would remain sealed until Gods Prince would come to open it. It just so happens, that Jerusalems Old East Gate was buried long ago, and there is now another Gate built right on the top of the Old East Gate, and it is sealed. The Bible tells us, all attempts to open it will fail. The Moslems found out about the prophecy and twice in the last century tried to open the Gate to break the prophecy, but failed. The Gate remains sealed today, and cannot be opened until the Prince to come opens it Himself. We are truly living in the last days, and I believe there will be people from my generation that will see the return of Christ. And I can say this, because I see the prophecies of the Bible unfolding before us.
0 Replies
 
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2007 06:36 pm
@Greatest I am cv,
"....why does worshipping christ stop christians from recieving teachings from anywhere else?"

Jesus tells us that no one can break through to God without going through Him (Jesus). If one believes in Jesus, one must worship only Jesus. It comes down to whether or not one believes Jesus. I do, always have, and go forth in His name. For me, there is no other reason to keep living.:headbang:
0 Replies
 
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2007 06:40 pm
@Greatest I am cv,
".....to me the "end time" is when we (all humanity) live harmoniously with the laws of God, not man."

But what god? Jesus lived. He was real. We have witnesses. Who is your god? Did he/she/it ever live amongst men? Do you have witnesses? Where is your sense of historical certainty? How do you know someone else didn't just invent your god. I CAN POINT TO MY GOD -- JESUS OF NAZARETH. He lived. I am historically certain.
Campbell34
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 07:30 am
@Pinochet73,
Pinochet73;25373 wrote:
".....to me the "end time" is when we (all humanity) live harmoniously with the laws of God, not man."

But what god? Jesus lived. He was real. We have witnesses. Who is your god? Did he/she/it ever live amongst men? Do you have witnesses? Where is your sense of historical certainty? How do you know someone else didn't just invent your god. I CAN POINT TO MY GOD -- JESUS OF NAZARETH. He lived. I am historically certain.


Yes Pinochet, that I am sure is more accurate.
0 Replies
 
Dmizer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 10:01 am
@Greatest I am cv,
Immortality is a myth. The end of the world is a Biblical story. The Bible must be read with the understanding that it is the rumminations of authors who had no connection with the subjects they were writing about. Allow me to explain.
Sometime around the year 30 C.E., Jesus, a Nazarene peasant and charismatic religious leader, was executed in Jerusalem as a political agitator by the roman prefect Pontius Pilate. Despite his death, however, his followers did not disband. They grouped together, preserving some of Jesus’ teachings and some stories about him, which became part of the substance of their preaching as they continued his mission to prepare Israel for the coming Kingdom of God. At the same time or shortly thereafter, these oral teachings began to circulate in Greek as well as Aramaic.
Eventually, some of Jesus’ sayings, now in Greek, were collected and written down in a document, now lost, which scholars designate Q (Quelle means Source). Meanwhile, other oral traditions- miracle stories, parables, legends, and so on – grew, circulated, and were collected in different forms by various Christian communities. In the period around the destruction of the second Temple (70 C.E.), an anonymous Gentile Christian wrote some of these down. This person was not an author, he did not compose de novo. Nor was he a historian – he did not deal directly and critically with his evidence. The writer was an evangelist, a sort of creative editor. He organized these stories into a sequence and shaped his inherited material into something resembling a historical narrative. The result was the Gospel of Mark.
This Gospel eventually circulated beyond its community of origin to others, acquainted with different traditions about Jesus. From surviving literary evidence we know of at least two other anonymous Christians who, independently but at roughly the same time (90-100 C.E.), combined Mark with other materials, both written and oral – the Greek sayings source, Q; extensive references to the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, The Septuagint; and other, perhaps local, traditions. The results were the gospels of Matthew and Luke.
So Fundamentally the gospels are theological proclamation, not historical biography; and to the degree that they do present us with an image of Jesus, it is first of all the “Jesus” who founded the particular community behind each gospel. By that I mean to say that traditions from and about Jesus spanning this temporal, cultural, and linguistic gap circulated orally; and the reliability of oral traditions, in the absence of independent or convergent lines of evidence, is nearly impossible to assess. As psychological and anthropological studies of oral traditions show, even reports going back to eyewitnesses are far from historically secure. Interpretation distortion occurs at every link because the observer is human. Communication between different people over time, before it achieves written form ( like the gospels), would undergo revision at every retelling. The degree of distortion between what actually occurred and what is written in the gospels is incalculable.
Greatest I am cv
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 10:36 am
@Dmizer,
Dmizer

To not believe in immortality is to not believe in God.
Is this true?

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
markx15
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 10:46 am
@Greatest I am cv,
Quote:
But what god? Jesus lived. He was real. We have witnesses. Who is your god? Did he/she/it ever live amongst men? Do you have witnesses? Where is your sense of historical certainty? How do you know someone else didn't just invent your god. I CAN POINT TO MY GOD -- JESUS OF NAZARETH. He lived. I am historically certain.


My relationship with God, is not inbetween individuals. He teaches me when I listen, but I know he is constantly telling me everything and anything. I cannot see, touch or hear him, but I can feel him. He lets me go to him, so I go happily. I know that whatever may happen he is with me, not with supernatural powers, but with a calming hand, telling me to rest easy and listen, always listen. This is intuitive, noone told me where to find God, but he was always there, I used to stumble on him from time to time, now I know the way back. I might not have physical proof, but I have spiritual faith, that is all I need to accept spiritual "rewards". My God has no form, no matter, tecnically speaking he doesn't exist, not in the way we percieve things. When I die he will not appear to me, or judge me, my death is nothing, perhaps I will better understand him afterwards, who knows. I don't recomend that you copy me, or anything I might do, the lessons I learned are mine, you can profit from them, but you risk missing your own. Jesus could have been the word of God, to me it doesn't really matter, he carried a great message, no need for me to increase his burden with my sins. He showed me many ways of reaching enlightenment, so did many others, he has my gratitude, which is by the way more then he ever asked.
Dmizer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 01:04 pm
@Greatest I am cv,
Greatest I Am,
What is God? That is the question you need to answer. No two people will answer the question alike. Is God the God of the Bible? Or is he the God of the Torah? Or Koran?
Is God the Creator that spawned life on this planet? Is God the essence of intelligence that presents itself in every molecule and DNA strand? Is God the culmination of universal facts that fit every other fact?
God is a powerful concept that requires a search of your beliefs and experiences to unravel. If you ask a child, "What is God?" The answer is likely to be amazingly simple and adherent to the beliefs of their parents. And yet I surmise that the childs answer will be closer to the truth then the parents, for as powerful a concept as "God" is, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

"To not believe in immortality is to not believe in God.
Is this true?"

Immortality was a concept created by men who lived in fear and confusion about death. I don't believe immortality has anything to do with God. God did not create the notion of immortality, man did.
Greatest I am cv
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 02:56 pm
@Dmizer,
Dmizer;25505 wrote:
Greatest I Am,
What is God? That is the question you need to answer. No two people will answer the question alike. Is God the God of the Bible? Or is he the God of the Torah? Or Koran?
Is God the Creator that spawned life on this planet? Is God the essence of intelligence that presents itself in every molecule and DNA strand? Is God the culmination of universal facts that fit every other fact?
God is a powerful concept that requires a search of your beliefs and experiences to unravel. If you ask a child, "What is God?" The answer is likely to be amazingly simple and adherent to the beliefs of their parents. And yet I surmise that the child's answer will be closer to the truth then the parents, for as powerful a concept as "God" is, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

"To not believe in immortality is to not believe in God.
Is this true?"

Immortality was a concept created by men who lived in fear and confusion about death. I don't believe immortality has anything to do with God. God did not create the notion of immortality, man did.


God is probably all of the above. He is for all of us, not just a select few.

My view is that He is a non corporeal entity. He has made His philosophy known to the ancient prophets and the Bible is their attempt to pass on this information to us. He is information. The Bible give God as first name "word".
To me this makes the Bible simply a collection of His words as interpreted by non sophisticated writers. You will note that much of the Bible was rendered by those that were "in the spirit" when God relayed information.

You are correct in stating that we have over complicated His message. Fundamentalists say that God cannot be understood. I say that if we cannot understand Him then He is not God. God can and does make Himself understood if we listen.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 03:34 pm
@markx15,
markx15;25483 wrote:
My relationship with God, is not inbetween individuals. He teaches me when I listen, but I know he is constantly telling me everything and anything. I cannot see, touch or hear him, but I can feel him. He lets me go to him, so I go happily. I know that whatever may happen he is with me, not with supernatural powers, but with a calming hand, telling me to rest easy and listen, always listen. This is intuitive, noone told me where to find God, but he was always there, I used to stumble on him from time to time, now I know the way back. I might not have physical proof, but I have spiritual faith, that is all I need to accept spiritual "rewards". My God has no form, no matter, tecnically speaking he doesn't exist, not in the way we percieve things. When I die he will not appear to me, or judge me, my death is nothing, perhaps I will better understand him afterwards, who knows. I don't recomend that you copy me, or anything I might do, the lessons I learned are mine, you can profit from them, but you risk missing your own. Jesus could have been the word of God, to me it doesn't really matter, he carried a great message, no need for me to increase his burden with my sins. He showed me many ways of reaching enlightenment, so did many others, he has my gratitude, which is by the way more then he ever asked.



All very cool, Grasshopper, but..........how do know you haven't fabricated this god, and that in reality, he doesn't exist at all? If you're just 'listening' to yourself, then you've wasted time, and a lot of it. You just wasted some by writing this little narrative, for example. You even admitted that he doesn't exist, really, even while describing him. Moreover, why does he have to be a male? If you can't define him or know him or commune with him beyond the degree to which you just revealed, how do you know it's a 'he', and not a 'she' or an 'it'? Have you ever considered that it's just too easy to invent one's own god, which helps explain why most people don't and/or can't? It just doesn't work. How are you any different? :dunno:
0 Replies
 
Campbell34
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jul, 2007 12:10 am
@Dmizer,
Dmizer;25472 wrote:


The end of the world is more than just a Biblical story, it is a Biblical prophecy. And if it was just a story, those prophecies would of been exposed as false long ago. Yet what is happening is just the oppsite. The Prophecies are comeing to pass in detail, and to ignore them would be foolish.
As far as incalculable distortions, this is only incalculable in your own mind, for they are now discovering second and first century fragments of manuscrips and they have only confirmed what we find in our Bibles today. The majority text which numbers in the thousands of copies from all over the world agree, which only confirms all the more that the Bible we have today can be depended on. And for myself, the Jesus I worship is not a dead God, far from it. I have heard His voice, and I have seen His wonders, I have had encounters with the evil the Bible speaks of. And the longer I live on this earth the more I know and understand, that this Jesus is not just some good teacher from the past, but is the living God.
0 Replies
 
markx15
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jul, 2007 10:55 am
@Greatest I am cv,
Quote:
All very cool, Grasshopper, but..........how do know you haven't fabricated this god, and that in reality, he doesn't exist at all? If you're just 'listening' to yourself, then you've wasted time, and a lot of it. You just wasted some by writing this little narrative, for example. You even admitted that he doesn't exist, really, even while describing him. Moreover, why does he have to be a male? If you can't define him or know him or commune with him beyond the degree to which you just revealed, how do you know it's a 'he', and not a 'she' or an 'it'? Have you ever considered that it's just too easy to invent one's own god, which helps explain why most people don't and/or can't? It just doesn't work. How are you any different?


You can only fabricate real things, "my" God isnt real. He doesn't have a gender, it is simply easier to say and understand. I have listened and learned, truely learned. What did I learn? How to act. Time is always being wasted, it's just up to us how to waste it. I am not diferent in this sense from anyone else, I believe, that anyone who tries can listen as I do, I know others who do this as well. I commune with him in the purest place I know, the place I believe to be the "center" of my being, that is more real to me than the birds chirping outside my window. I believe the world has no diference in and of itself. Reality is literally what you percieve it to be, because it is based on your perception which is what you act upon. We as civilized beings, form societies, that requires at least similar realities for us to coexist. We can only coexist peacefully when people take possesion over their own perception. You could in a way say perception is my God.
Dmizer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jul, 2007 12:07 pm
@Greatest I am cv,
"As far as incalculable distortions, this is only incalculable in your own mind, for they are now discovering second and first century fragments of manuscrips and they have only confirmed what we find in our Bibles today. The majority text which numbers in the thousands of copies from all over the world agree, which only confirms all the more that the Bible we have today can be depended on."

The period of greatest distortion occured during the time of the oral telling, before any of what you see now was written. Biblical scholars agree that there was a period of approximately 40 to 70 years between the time when Jesus died and the "Q" source was written. Even that "Q" source was lost.
The texts from the first and second century may match up quite closely to todays texts, but it matters not, the damage was done, the distortion is beyond repair. What actually happened and what was written are certainly to entirely different things.
 

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