@Professor Chaos,
Quote:Jesus as a historical figure is mentioned numerous times in Greek, Aramaic, Coptic, Roman and more importantly Jewish ancient documents
Erakles (Hercules) as a historical figure is mentioned numerous times in Greek, Aramaic, Copitc, Roman, Egyptian, Persian and Scythian. He was mentioned more times in Tacitus (a favorite of Christians for ?proof? of Jesus) than Christians are (Jesus is never mentioned in Tacitus, only Christians). Erakles is written about as if he actually existed, was the Son of God, died, went to the underworld, resurrected and joined Zeus on Mt. Olympus (equivalent to Heaven). Does this mean that Erakles was a historical figure? Serious, the numerous times you mentioned range from more than 100 years after Jesus supposedly lived to several centuries after the fact. The ancient Jewish documents (the Babylonian Talmud) were written between 300 CE and 600 CE ? two separate endeavors), the Greek, Aramaic and Coptic writings were from early 2nd century CE to as late as late 3rd century CE. The Roman writings were from the second century CE, the famed ?Testimonium Flavianum? and the ?Jamesian Reference? from the works of Josephus the Jewish Historian of the late 1st century to early 2nd century are now dismissed by all but a small group of evangelitical scholars as 4th and 5th century Christian insertions. I would suggest you get and read ?Misquoting Jesus? by Bart Ehrman, the noted biblical scholar and textual critic, as well as ?Forgery in Christianity? by Joseph Wheless, two books that show the myriad of changes and insertions in the so-call holy scriptures
Quote:You have no grounds to make the assumptions you are making. The amount of information available on the subject is staggering. You simply need to educate yourself on the matter.
Actually he does, the dreath of any textural mention of Jesus before the 2nd century (other than possibly the epistles of Paul ? although even their existence can not be verified before their ?discovery and mention? by Marcion in the first quarter of the 2nd century) gives question to the existence of Jesus. The timeline established by the gospels (first mentioned in 150 CE and mentioned by name in 180 CE) does not jibe with each other nor with recorded history. There is a 11 year difference between the birth years reported by Matthew and Luke and going by either will not jibe with history (as recorded within the NT or by secular historians of the day). By Matthew?s birth date, Jesus starts his ministry and dies before John the Baptist and is executed before Pontius Pilate arrived in Judea and by Luke?s date, Jesus doesn?t even start his ministry until after John the Baptist has been executed and Pontius Pilate has been recalled to Rome! Strangely, two Jewish historians were writing at the very time Jesus supposedly conducted his ministry (Josephus wasn?t born until 4 years after the supposed crucifixion), they were Philo of Alexandria and Justus of Tiberia. Philo actually lived in Jerusalem during the period that Jesus supposedly ministered and had a ?hobby? of collecting information on all Jewish sects and cults of the period. He makes no mention at all of a miracle worker from Nazareth (the town which doesn?t seem to have existed until the second century CE), of the crucifixion of this miracle worker, of the triumphant entry of this miracle worker, of the veil in the temple being ripped, of the earthquake on the day prior to Passover, of the dead saints walking in the streets of Jerusalem, of the unexplained darkness, no mention even of the followers of this miracle worker. Justus lived in Tiberia, just a short walk from where Nazareth supposedly was, he wrote on all things Jewish during the period that Jesus supposedly ministered. Although his works were all destroyed by the ascendant Church, the early Church Father Clementine makes the comment that it was strange that Justus never mentioned the Lord. No historian of that area and period makes any mention of this Jesus (and there were well over 30 of them writing at that time), even though they report extensively on other would-be Messiahs, Charlatans, Magicians and miracle workers. Some of these would-bes even had their own gospels and their own disciples, performed miracles identical to those Jesus supposedly performed (some even witnessed by the historian reporting) and claimed to be the ?Son of God?. You gave a list of books, so I will reciprocate with a list of my own?bear in mind that it is only a partial list, but should suffice:
Paul Johnson, A History of the Jews (Phoenix Grant, 1987)
John Meier, A Marginal Jew - Rethinking the Historical Jesus (Doubleday, 1991)
Josephus, The Jewish War (Penguin, 1959)
Leslie Houlden (Ed.), Judaism & Christianity (Routledge, 1988)
Riane Eisler, The Chalice & the Blade (Harper Collins, 1987)
Geza Vermes, The Changing Faces of Jesus (Allen Lane, 2000)
A.N.Wilson, Jesus (Harper Collins, 1993)
Ian Wilson, Jesus: the Evidence (Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1984)
Alvar Ellegard, Jesus One Hundred Years Before Christ (Century, 1999)
Johannes Lehmann, The Jesus Report (Souvenir Press, 1972
Dan Cohn-Sherbok, The Crucified Jew (Harper Collins,1992)
Henry Hart Milman, The History of the Jews (Everyman, 1939)
Jonathan N. Tubb, Canaanites (British Museum Press, 1998)
Norman Cantor, The Sacred Chain - A History of the Jews (Harper Collins, 1994)
Thomas Sheehan, The First Coming (Crucible, 1986)
David Farmer, Oxford Dictionary of Saints (OUP,1997)
Bruce Metzger, M. CooganThe Oxford Companion to the Bible (OUP, 1993)
Edward Gibbon, The Decline & Fall of the Roman Empire (1799)
Michael Walsh, Roots of Christianity (Grafton, 1986)
Robin Lane Fox, The Unauthorized Version (Penguin, 1991)
Helen Ellerbe, The Dark Side of Christian History (Morningstar & Lark, 1995)
Maxwell Staniforth, Early Christian Writings (Penguin, 1978)
L. Boyle, St. Clements, Rome (Collegio San Clemente, 1989)
Jean Ritchie, The Secret World of Cults (Harper Collins, 1991)
John Riches, The World of Jesus (Cambridge University Press, 1990)
Nicholas Carter, The Christ Myth (HRP, 1993)
Thomas Sheehan, The First Coming (Crucible, 1986)
Michael Walsh, Roots of Christianity (Grafton, 1986)
Peter Roberts, In Search of Early Christian Unity (Vantage, 1985).
Quote:For example "not one word about him was written during his lifetime". Where did you come up with that nonsense? The Jews, who hated him and wanted him dead, documented his existance and execution, The Romans did so also.
Actually the Professor is quite right. Any competent historian will tell you that there is no mention of this Jesus prior to (at best) the very late 1st century and most likely the early 2nd century. What book did you get the nonsense that the Jews documented his existence and execution or that that Romans did likewise? Could you give the references to these records, no matter if they are in Hebrew, Latin, or Greek. The first mention of Jesus (outside of the gospels ? which actually date much later than most Christians think) is Josephus? Testimonium Flavianus and Jamesian Reference, both of which are dismissed by most scholars as later Christian insertions (we even know the names of the forgers and one of them is suspected of insertions into the works of Tacitus and Suetonius also!). All other mentions in ancient non-Christian documents are for Christians, not Jesus. It might pay to do a little reading of the works of secular historians and scholars as well as those with strong religious views. :patriot:
