Did Jesus even exist?

Mostly everyone admits that Jesus existed, Christian or not.

How abut the new testament? Did that just pop up out of nowhere? That's about Jesus.

And you can't really say that it was invented after the time, there are real accounts of Christians existing soon after he died.

As for Christianity being fake, how do you account for such a huge number of miracles, which would surely fly in the face of scientific explanation because the numbers of miracles have overcome huge odds against them.

Sorry Chaos,
your grasping at straws on this one. Jesus is a historical figure, his existance is well documented in roman, greek and coptic texts. The subject of existance has been thoroughly reserched by skeptics and believers alike. Now if your to ask the question, is he who he claimed to be? That we can debate on. But as to his existance, there is no question, he did exist. If you would like I can provide a well documented history trail for you to follow from many different independent sources.

The first Book you will need to digest is the book "From Jesus to Christ" by Paula Fredrickson. It deals with the origins of the new testament. But more importantly historians use cross referencing from different cultures to certify the proof of existance. Jesus as a historical figure is mentioned numerous times in Greek, Aramaic, Coptic, Roman and more importantly Jewish ancient documents. Historians also use basic criteria for testing authenticity of historical material on Jesus. Dissimilarity, coherence, multiple attestation and linguistic suitability. These criteria cross reference many different sources throughout cultures and time. It is a well respected and widely accepted methodology for verification of historical events and existance. You have no grounds to make the assumptions you are making. The amount of information available on the subject is staggering. You simply need to educate yourself on the matter.
History of Israel -by J. Bright
Jesus and the constraints of History- by A. Harvey
Revitalization Movements - by A.F.C. Wallace
The Quest of the Historical Jesus - By Albert Schweitzer
I could go on and on, but the Bibliography on the Histroical Jesus is enormous. You need to read more on it before you make statements you cannot back up with proof. For example "not one word about him was written during his lifetime". Where did you come up with that nonsense? The Jews, who hated him and wanted him dead, documented his existance and execution, The Romans did so also. All of which has been throughly scrutinzed by thousands of historians throughout history. Where is you proof for the statements that you have made? All I see you doing is posing more questions, back up your statements with proof not more questions. But do some reading first!

If you're getting your information about Christianity from stupid movies rather than ancient documents, of course you think in those terms.

There is just no denying that there were early christians. There was a sect of Jewish Christians at first, and then Christiantity spread to other places. Accounts of early christians in places like Rome are famous today.

There are several accounts of miracles, from ancient to contemporary. To become a saint in the Catholic church, performing miracles is required (in most cases.) There are hundreds of saints.

This is priceless,
You read one contrary book written by a quack and all of a sudden it's "gospel" to you. I submit thousands of authors over centuries and you submit one book as your proof. LOL. This arguement is over as far as I"m concerned. You are completely unarmed in this arena, you don't even understand the fundamental criteria for establishing historical legitamacy. The book you quoted proves that fact. It's sad really, you read one book and you think your an expert. Classic!

I posted several facts as to his existence, you obviously failed to comprehend the context.
"Historians also use basic criteria for testing authenticity of historical material on Jesus. Dissimilarity, coherence, multiple attestation and linguistic suitability. These criteria cross reference many different sources throughout cultures and time. It is a well respected and widely accepted methodology for verification of historical events and existance."
Using the fore mentioned criteria, I could discredit any of the sources you are using to make your assumption. These criteria are the same ones used by all of the acredited Universities and institutions through out the Globe to test Historical legitamacy of a historical figure. There is no question as to Jesus's existence. Your persistence in flying in the face of this overwhelming body of evidence is destroying what little credibility you may have in this forum.
So I put it to you, In order to restore your credibility and since your the only one who seems convinced he never existed, what is your evidence? I answered your question, answer mine.

There's no evidence to suggest that he did. Not one word was written about him during his alleged lifetime. Christianity is obviously a mish-mash of various religious beliefs, incorporating Mithras, Dionysius, Osirius-Horus, and others into Judaism.

Christians have come to realize that every other religion man has ever invented is false. What makes yours so different?

Christians have come to realize that every other religion man has ever invented is false.

What makes yours so different?

Quote:

Christians have come to realize that every other religion man has ever invented is false.

Which Christians?

Makes it different then what, yours? And that religion would be what?

All of them.



Different than all the other religions that you have come to realize are false.

All of them.

Different than all the other religions that you have come to realize are false.

Can you name one and back it up? That is what you were asking of Dmizer? "all of them" will not surfice.

You assume i have come to realise they are false. Yet provide no proof?

St. Pio of Pietrelcina (Padre Pio)

b.1887 d.1968

St. Pio of Pietrelcina (Padre Pio)
Francesco, named in honor of St. Francis of Assisi, was born to Giuseppa and Grazio Forgione, peasant farmers, in the small Italian village of Pietrelcina on May 25, 1887. From his childhood, it was evident that he was a special child of God. Francesco was very devout even as a child, and at an early age felt drawn to the priesthood. He became a Capuchin novice at the age of sixteen and received the habit in 1902. Francesco was ordained to the priesthood in 1910 after seven years of study and became known as Padre Pio.

On September 20, 1918, Padre Pio was kneeling in front of a large crucifix when he received the visible marks of the crucifixion, making him the first stigmatized priest in the history of Church. The doctor who examined Padre Pio could not find any natural cause for the wounds. Upon his death in 1968, the wounds were no longer visible. In fact, there was no scaring and the skin was completely renewed. He had predicted 50 years prior that upon his death the wounds would heal. The wounds of the stigmata were not the only mystical phenomenon experienced by Padre Pio.

The blood from the stigmata had an odor described by many as similar to that of perfume or flowers, and the gift of bilocation was attributed to him. Padre Pio had the ability to read the hearts of the penitents who flocked to him for confession which he heard for ten or twelve hours per day. Padre Pio used the confessional to bring both sinners and devout souls closer to God; he would know just the right word of counsel or encouragement that was needed. Even before his death, people spoke to Padre Pio about his possible canonization. He died on September 23, 1968 at the age of eighty-one. His funeral was attended by about 100,000 people.

On June 16, 2002, over 500,000 Padre Pio devotees gathered in Rome to witness Pope John Paul II proclaim Padre Pio, Saint Pio of Pietrelcina. The Padre Pio Foundation and many benefactors traveled to Rome, San Giovanni Rotondo, Pietrelcina, Piana Romana and many other holy places to celebrate Padre Pio's Canonization.







Pope John Paul II - Homily at the Canonization of Saint Pio of Pietrelcina, Capuchin Priest - 16 June 2002

1. "For my yoke is easy and my burden light" (Mt 11,30).

Jesus' words to his disciples, which we just heard, help us to understand the most important message of this solemn celebration. Indeed, in a certain sense, we can consider them as a magnificent summary of the whole life of Padre Pio of Pietrelcina, today proclaimed a saint.

The evangelical image of the "yoke" recalls the many trials that the humble Capuchin of San Giovanni Rotondo had to face. Today we contemplate in him how gentle the "yoke" of Christ is, and how truly light is his burden when it is borne with faithful love. The life and mission of Padre Pio prove that difficulties and sorrows, if accepted out of love, are transformed into a privileged way of holiness, which opens onto the horizons of a greater good, known only to the Lord.

2. "But may I never boast except in the cross of Our Lord Jesus Christ" (Gal 6,14).

Is it not, precisely, the "glory of the Cross" that shines above all in Padre Pio? How timely is the spirituality of the Cross lived by the humble Capuchin of Pietrelcina. Our time needs to rediscover the value of the Cross in order to open the heart to hope.

Throughout his life, he always sought greater conformity with the Crucified, since he was very conscious of having been called to collaborate in a special way in the work of redemption. His holiness cannot be understood without this constant reference to the Cross.

In God's plan, the Cross constitutes the true instrument of salvation for the whole of humanity and the way clearly offered by the Lord to those who wish to follow him (cf. Mk 16,24). The Holy Franciscan of the Gargano understood this well, when on the Feast of the Assumption in 1914, he wrote: "In order to succeed in reaching our ultimate end we must follow the divine Head, who does not wish to lead the chosen soul on any way other than the one he followed; by that, I say, of abnegation and the Cross" (Epistolario II, p. 155).

3. "I am the Lord who acts with mercy" (Jer 9,23).

Padre Pio was a generous dispenser of divine mercy, making himself available to all by welcoming them, by spiritual direction and, especially, by the administration of the sacrament of Penance. I also had the privilege, during my young years, of benefitting from his availability for penitents. The ministry of the confessional, which is one of the distinctive traits of his apostolate, attracted great crowds of the faithful to the monastery of San Giovanni Rotondo. Even when that unusual confessor treated pilgrims with apparent severity, the latter, becoming conscious of the gravity of sins and sincerely repentant, almost always came back for the peaceful embrace of sacramental forgiveness. May his example encourage priests to carry out with joy and zeal this ministry which is so important today, as I wished to confirm this year in the Letter to Priests on the occasion of Holy Thursday.

4. "You, Lord, are my only good".

This is what we sang in the responsorial psalm. Through these words, the new Saint invites us to place God above everything, to consider him our sole and highest good.

In fact, the ultimate reason for the apostolic effectiveness of Padre Pio, the profound root of so much spiritual fruitfulness can be found in that intimate and constant union with God, attested to by his long hours spent in prayer and in the confessional. He loved to repeat, "I am a poor Franciscan who prays" convinced that "prayer is the best weapon we have, a key that opens the heart of God".

This fundamental characteristic of his spirituality continues in the "Prayer Groups" that he founded, which offer to the Church and to society the wonderful contribution of incessant and confident prayer. To prayer, Padre Pio joined an intense charitable activity, of which the "Home for the Relief of Suffering" is an extraordinary expression. Prayer and charity, this is the most concrete synthesis of Padre Pio's teaching, which today is offered to everyone.

5. "I bless you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because ... these things ... you have revealed to little ones" (Mt 11,25).

How appropriate are these words of Jesus, when we think of them as applied to you, humble and beloved Padre Pio.

Teach us, we ask you, humility of heart so we may be counted among the little ones of the Gospel, to whom the Father promised to reveal the mysteries of his Kingdom.

Help us to pray without ceasing, certain that God knows what we need even before we ask him. Obtain for us the eyes of faith that will be able to recognize right away in the poor and suffering the face of Jesus.

Sustain us in the hour of the combat and of the trial and, if we fall, make us experience the joy of the sacrament of forgiveness.

Grant us your tender devotion to Mary, the Mother of Jesus and our Mother.

Accompany us on our earthly pilgrimage toward the blessed homeland, where we hope to arrive in order to contemplate forever the glory of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
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There's just one of many miraculous saints. Sorry for the full bio, but I thought, you know, since you want all the information...