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I blame "Cribs" and Paris Hilton

 
 
oleo
 
Reply Thu 14 Dec, 2006 04:58 pm
Americans See Widening Rich-Poor Income Gap as Cause for Alarm

really, no I don't. I see it where I live.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,845 • Replies: 24
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oleo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Dec, 2006 05:05 pm
@oleo,
I'll add these, though I haven't been able to check their validity. If you
find other statistics please post them.

The U.S. rank among developed nations in the gap between the richest and poorest citizens: we're #1 !

Percent of all U.S. wealth (stocks, bonds, cash, homes, real estate, cars, boats, DVDs, Tupperware, etc) owned by richest 1% of Americans: 33.4%.

Percent of all U.S. wealth owned by the bottom 90% of Americans: 30.4%.

Average increase in income over the last 6 years for 80% of the workforce is 3.9%.
Inflation has been at or above that rate, so wages are NOT keeping up with inflation.

Home heating costs have risen 60-70%, and health insurance premiums (for those that HAVE health insurance) have risen over 80%.

The impact of the 2006 Extension of Tax Cuts for Capital Gains and Dividends is: the average cut for people making under $50,000 a year is $3, while the average cut for people making $1 million or more a year is $59,972.
tumbleweed cv
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Dec, 2006 05:21 pm
@oleo,
I like trivia. :cool:

That's a good start.Smile
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Dec, 2006 10:26 pm
@oleo,
oleo;8238 wrote:
I'll add these, though I haven't been able to check their validity. If you
find other statistics please post them.

The U.S. rank among developed nations in the gap between the richest and poorest citizens: we're #1 !

Percent of all U.S. wealth (stocks, bonds, cash, homes, real estate, cars, boats, DVDs, Tupperware, etc) owned by richest 1% of Americans: 33.4%.

Percent of all U.S. wealth owned by the bottom 90% of Americans: 30.4%.

Average increase in income over the last 6 years for 80% of the workforce is 3.9%.
Inflation has been at or above that rate, so wages are NOT keeping up with inflation.

Home heating costs have risen 60-70%, and health insurance premiums (for those that HAVE health insurance) have risen over 80%.

The impact of the 2006 Extension of Tax Cuts for Capital Gains and Dividends is: the average cut for people making under $50,000 a year is $3, while the average cut for people making $1 million or more a year is $59,972.

Quote:
The impact of the 2006 Extension of Tax Cuts for Capital Gains and Dividends is: the average cut for people making under $50,000 a year is $3, while the average cut for people making $1 million or more a year is $59,972

How much doe's a person making one million pay in taxes as opposed to the one making fifty? Proportionate?
oleo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 02:35 pm
@Drnaline,
Drnaline;8257 wrote:
How much doe's a person making one million pay in taxes as opposed to the one making fifty? Proportionate?


Proportionate doesn't matter.

I'll let you in on a little big secret: people who make a million dollars a year
pay almost nothing in taxes, because they use tax shelters and investments
and bonds to avoid paying taxes, because that's the point of the tax system.
If they just put their money in their mattress or in a bank account inflation
would go through the roof and we'd have another great depression, which was
a crisis of surplus rather than a crisis of deficit. The great depression happened
because a system wasn't in place to accurately make sure the people at the top
spent their money and kept it circulating through the economy, so they ended
up hoarding all of the money at the top, and everyone below them crashed.
The progressive tax system was devised then and there to make certain that
people with excess capital used it in some manner, because the country will
crash to its knees if they don't.

Someone will always pay taxes, we couldn't have a government without
them. Do you really want to charge someone who makes $50,000 a year
the same amount as someone who makes $1,000,000? Look, country clubs
have V.I.P. memberships that cost a little more. I don't know the last time
you had the luxury of taking a couple of weeks off to fly to every National
Park or whatever, but I think they can pay the extra tab for the extra
benefits they get in this country.
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 04:52 pm
@oleo,
oleo;8264 wrote:
Proportionate doesn't matter.

I'll let you in on a little big secret: people who make a million dollars a year
pay almost nothing in taxes, because they use tax shelters and investments
and bonds to avoid paying taxes, because that's the point of the tax system.
If they just put their money in their mattress or in a bank account inflation
would go through the roof and we'd have another great depression, which was
a crisis of surplus rather than a crisis of deficit. The great depression happened
because a system wasn't in place to accurately make sure the people at the top
spent their money and kept it circulating through the economy, so they ended
up hoarding all of the money at the top, and everyone below them crashed.
The progressive tax system was devised then and there to make certain that
people with excess capital used it in some manner, because the country will
crash to its knees if they don't.

Someone will always pay taxes, we couldn't have a government without
them. Do you really want to charge someone who makes $50,000 a year
the same amount as someone who makes $1,000,000? Look, country clubs
have V.I.P. memberships that cost a little more. I don't know the last time
you had the luxury of taking a couple of weeks off to fly to every National
Park or whatever, but I think they can pay the extra tab for the extra
benefits they get in this country.

Quote:
Proportionate doesn't matter.


The hell it don't! I thought you were all about being fair and equal? In this country who pays the majority of taxes collected?
Quote:
I'll let you in on a little big secret: people who make a million dollars a year
pay almost nothing in taxes, because they use tax shelters and investments
and bonds to avoid paying taxes, because that's the point of the tax system.

So why is the largest portion of taxes paid by the top 2 to 5%?
Quote:
Someone will always pay taxes, we couldn't have a government without
them. Do you really want to charge someone who makes $50,000 a year
the same amount as someone who makes $1,000,000?

I think we should pay proportionately.
Quote:
I think they can pay the extra tab for the extra
benefits they get in this country.

What happens when they feel that extra tab should be payed by you? You gonna cry like a stuck pig? Or you gonna pay it because someone like you thought you should pay it instead of him?
Curmudgeon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 07:50 am
@oleo,
This could open discussion about how we should change our tax system .
Personally , I favor a flat tax rate on sales , if you buy things with your money , you pay tax then , not when you get paid . There should be very few if any shelters available .
tumbleweed cv
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 08:25 am
@Curmudgeon,
Curmudgeon;8308 wrote:
This could open discussion about how we should change our tax system .
Personally , I favor a flat tax rate on sales , if you buy things with your money , you pay tax then , not when you get paid . There should be very few if any shelters available .

The flat tax has some very good points.IMO. The rate or percentage seems to be the biggest hurdle from what I understand of it.
0 Replies
 
oleo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 10:31 am
@Curmudgeon,
Curmudgeon;8308 wrote:
This could open discussion about how we should change our tax system .
Personally , I favor a flat tax rate on sales , if you buy things with your money , you pay tax then , not when you get paid . There should be very few if any shelters available .


the super-wealthy pay for very little, in reality. If need-be they can have
anything shipped in from out of the country. Think about that... they don't
run to the supermarket in the middle of the night, or go Christmas shopping at
the mall. I don't think you know the lifestyle these people lead.

Look, I know someone who worked doing corporate taxes for a huge entertainment co. He says a flat tax would screw the average person while
letting the wealthy get off with paying nothing at all. As it is they don't pay
much... the system is set up to let them invest in businesses or the country and
get credits and deductions.
0 Replies
 
tumbleweed cv
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 10:39 am
@oleo,
Sounds familiar.Very Happy

There seems to be a lot of pros and cons. I haven't researched it enough yet to make an informed decision.

It sounds like there could be a lot of loop holes.
0 Replies
 
oleo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 10:46 am
@Drnaline,
Drnaline;8282 wrote:
The hell it don't! I thought you were all about being fair and equal? In this country who pays the majority of taxes collected?

So why is the largest portion of taxes paid by the top 2 to 5%?

I think we should pay proportionately.

What happens when they feel that extra tab should be payed by you? You gonna cry like a stuck pig? Or you gonna pay it because someone like you thought you should pay it instead of him?


Wealthy people have the majority of the money, therefore they pay the majority
of the taxes. Understand that? It is proportionate the way it is, you don't
understand it. They get more benefit from the government and the system,
so they should pay for it. Look up John Stoussel's stories on govt. programs
that benefit the wealthy (having vacations home rebuilt by the govt.
every couple of years after a hurricane, etc.) or just think about how often they use the air-traffic control or infrastructure, the police are faster to
respond to wealthy neighborhoods, etc.

I don't for a minute complain about my taxes... anymore than I complain
about any bill I pay, I get an incredible return on them: The United States
of America, roads and highways, air-traffic control, the military, national parks,
public broadcasting and radio, museums...

If I had a million dollars I wouldn't complain about the current tax rate.
What's left over is more than enough for me to live like a king.

Give tax breaks and cuts to the working and middle-class families... the
people who need it.

How working class people have come to fight for the benefit of the wealthy
in beyond me, and pretty hilarious. I don't see the reverse happening very
often, and when it does those people get attacked for their views. It's like
some kind of sado-masochistic relationship that's come into existance.
oleo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 10:54 am
@oleo,
Just curious...

Imagine that I was someone who just believed in stock-piling food. Like a
mormon or something. I just had 10 years worth of food in my basement.

All of a sudden, out of the blue, there was a horrible local famine. Everyone
around me was almost starving to death, but since I had a stockpile I made
a deal with a few deputies I know - they get to share it with me if they
guard my house with automatic rifles. So, I don't share any of it with anyone.
most of whom die, including you and your family, before relief arrives.

Would I be considered a hero? Wise and prudent? A monster? Which?
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 05:27 pm
@oleo,
oleo;8313 wrote:
Wealthy people have the majority of the money, therefore they pay the majority
of the taxes. Understand that? It is proportionate the way it is, you don't
understand it. They get more benefit from the government and the system,
so they should pay for it. Look up John Stoussel's stories on govt. programs
that benefit the wealthy (having vacations home rebuilt by the govt.
every couple of years after a hurricane, etc.) or just think about how often they use the air-traffic control or infrastructure, the police are faster to
respond to wealthy neighborhoods, etc.

I don't for a minute complain about my taxes... anymore than I complain
about any bill I pay, I get an incredible return on them: The United States
of America, roads and highways, air-traffic control, the military, national parks,
public broadcasting and radio, museums...

If I had a million dollars I wouldn't complain about the current tax rate.
What's left over is more than enough for me to live like a king.

Give tax breaks and cuts to the working and middle-class families... the
people who need it.

How working class people have come to fight for the benefit of the wealthy
in beyond me, and pretty hilarious. I don't see the reverse happening very
often, and when it does those people get attacked for their views. It's like
some kind of sado-masochistic relationship that's come into existance.
Quote:
I'll let you in on a little big secret: people who make a million dollars a year
pay almost nothing in taxes, because they use tax shelters and investments
and bonds to avoid paying taxes, because that's the point of the tax system.

Quote:
Wealthy people have the majority of the money, therefore they pay the majority
of the taxes. Understand that?
So how do they do both, you say they almost pay nothing but yet they still pay the most? Understand that? Which is it, they pay almost nothing to they pay the most?
Quote:
It is proportionate the way it is, you don't understand it?

Quote:
Proportionate doesn't matter.

You tell me, which is it.
Quote:
I don't for a minute complain about my taxes... anymore than I complain
about any bill I pay, I get an incredible return on them: The United States
of America, roads and highways, air-traffic control, the military, national parks,
public broadcasting and radio, museums...

Why would you complain, the majority of benny's you enjoy are payed by some one wealthier then you.
Quote:
If I had a million dollars I wouldn't complain about the current tax rate.
What's left over is more than enough for me to live like a king.

Give tax breaks and cuts to the working and middle-class families... the
people who need it.

It's proportionate isn't it?
Quote:
How working class people have come to fight for the benefit of the wealthy
in beyond me, and pretty hilarious. I don't see the reverse happening very
often, and when it does those people get attacked for their views. It's like
some kind of sado-masochistic relationship that's come into existance.

You said it yourself, the wealthy have paid for it. All the working class have to do is work hard and become wealthy and guess what it happens all by itself. No S and M involved.
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 05:31 pm
@oleo,
oleo;8314 wrote:
Just curious...

Imagine that I was someone who just believed in stock-piling food. Like a
mormon or something. I just had 10 years worth of food in my basement.

All of a sudden, out of the blue, there was a horrible local famine. Everyone
around me was almost starving to death, but since I had a stockpile I made
a deal with a few deputies I know - they get to share it with me if they
guard my house with automatic rifles. So, I don't share any of it with anyone.
most of whom die, including you and your family, before relief arrives.

Would I be considered a hero? Wise and prudent? A monster? Which?
When your food was about half gone i would consider you dead, that's what your hired help will do to alleviate you of the problem. Would they be wise and prudent or monsters? Doesn't matter, you'd be dead.
0 Replies
 
oleo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 06:47 pm
@oleo,
Flat Tax Fiasco

Problems with a flat tax

The notion of a flat tax does have a certain simplistic, egalitarian appeal. But it has three main flaws:

1) It seeks to improve something that is already completely equal;

2) It forces middle-class taxpayers to subsidize the wealthy (especially
those incarnations such as Forbes' that exempt "unearned" income
such as the interest on his invested inheritance, so that working people
would support the idle rich); and,

3) It confuses much-needed tax reform and tax simplification in
defining taxable income with the unrelated issue of whether the rate
applied to that income is flat or graduated. Anyone who wants to
support a flat tax better run the numbers first and see how much more
they're going to pay!

The Graduated Progressive Tax is FAIR!

A lot of people don't understand graduated taxes. They think if you
make more money you pay a higher rate on your entire earnings,
which seems unfair.
Graduated progressive taxes are FAIR for three
reasons:
1) they treat all taxpayers exactly the same;
2) they treat dollars with appropriate difference based on differing levels of marginal utility; and
3) those who receive the most benefit should pay for the disproportionate benefit derived from the system.


Simplified hypothetical example:

Let's examine a hypothetical example of a true flat tax (we have to use a hypothetical example because none of
the actual proposals is a true flat tax) and compare it with a simplified example of a hypothetical progressive
system. Let's imagine a progressive system with three rates: 15% on the first $25,000 income layer, 28% on the
next $30,000 layer (from $25,000 to $55,000) and 33% above $55,000. A person who earns $25,000 would be
entirely in the first 15% layer, for a tax of $3,750. His take-home pay is $21,250. A flat 20% rate would raise the
working guy's taxes by $1,250.

A person earning $200,000 (the wealthiest 2% of the population) pays an exactly equal $3,750 for the first $25,000
layer. For the layer from $25,000 to $55,000 he pays the 28% tax of $8,400; and for the final $145,000 layer he
pays the 33% tax of $47,850 for a total tax of $60,000. His take-home pay is $140,000 -- more than six times that
of the $25,000 worker. With a flat 20% rate the investor's taxes would go down by $20,000!




DRNALINE,

The wealthy do "pay" more, but it is porportionate, and then they have shelters and investment credits that work
for them so that get deductions which reduce the actual amount they have to pay. So their tax bill is a certain amount
basically that bargain down by participating in various "incentives" that they're given. Their money isn't earmarked
for their kid's stomaches or the clothing on their backs like most Americans.
0 Replies
 
Curmudgeon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Dec, 2006 07:48 am
@oleo,
Perhaps I misspoke . I was referring to a single sales tax to replace the progressive tax structure . Not a flat tax , but a sales tax ( consumption ) , with the elimination of current IRS taxes , and few if any shelters or evasive means .
0 Replies
 
oleo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Dec, 2006 04:29 pm
@oleo,
From what I'm told that might work (it's used in some European countries) but is opposed by the wealthy, because it would nail them, hard. My tax attorney
buddy says the problem then becomes that the tax system isn't doing what it
was partly intended to do, which is give the wealthy an incentive to use their
money in a way that benefits the country and the economy (investing in
businesses that create jobs and fuel technological advancements, setting up
endowments and scholarships, supporting charitable organizations...). The
"constant circulation of wealth" is what this country was founded on, based
on what Europe was like at the time without it and what drove people here
to search out opportunity. Whenever it's stalled we get some event like the
Great Depression.

I'm told the tax code needs adjustment and simplification (it's the equivalent of a
computer program that's been patched a million times but never had the basic
code just totally rewritten from scratch) but it exists the way it does for a
reason and was arrived at through experience.
0 Replies
 
oleo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Dec, 2006 05:54 pm
@oleo,
Just how fair is the "Fair Tax?"
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Dec, 2006 05:54 pm
@oleo,
Quote:
DRNALINE,

The wealthy do "pay" more, but it is porportionate, and then they have shelters and investment credits that work
for them so that get deductions which reduce the actual amount they have to pay. So their tax bill is a certain amount
basically that bargain down by participating in various "incentives" that they're given. Their money isn't earmarked
for their kid's stomaches or the clothing on their backs like most Americans.

So who feeds and clothes there kids?
oleo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Dec, 2006 06:21 pm
@Drnaline,
Drnaline;8357 wrote:
So who feeds and clothes there kids?


I meant "all of their paychecks aren't earmarked..."
0 Replies
 
 

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