Wouldn't Hell be the Heaven for "Wrong Do'ers"?

@rex b,

What would be the point of making people to do everything you wanted?

If you had the power to make somebody love you..where is the passion in that? You would know you made them do it through a special power. It would be false and contrived.
No matter what you did to them, no matter how much you ignored them, they would be some sort of robot that would never have true feelings for you.

Now turn that around.

What if somebody did that to you? You would have no choice but love them. To be at there beck and call whenever THEY wanted you. What would you be worth? You would have no personal choices because they control you. Your life would not be worth living. When would you ever experience joy, peace or true love? None of those things would be a part of your life because you wouldnt have a choice in the matter.

So what use does God have for the human race? Why would he make a bunch of robots to do his bidding? Did He want companionship? yes. What good is a Robot for companionship? None.
God loves YOU personally ZoZo. He made ZoZo for a reason. If he hadnt wanted YOU to be born, you wouldnt be here. He has a Plan for your life.

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

Luke 12:5-7 (New International Version)

But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

He loves you so much ZoZo. Put aside your ideas of God being sick and ask him to make himself known to you so you can find the path he made for you.

You sound very depressed and weary ZoZo.. if thats the case I am so sorry. Let God give you joy.

3 Replies

@markx15,

markx15;8493 wrote:

You expect to have choice, but you think he doesn't? His reason I can't imagine though many consider his love for us as the answer.

I don't understand the logic in what you say. God loves us and for that reason he makes us suffer. That sounds like no logic I have ever heard of.

God has free will obviously. So God chooses to allow us to suffer even though he is omnipotent.

Do you have children? Would you do whatever you could to make life as good as possible for your children? Most parents would willing give up their lives for their children if there was a choice. Most parents do not stick burning cigarettes onto the skin of their children and tell them "I am doing this for your own good." If "God" was human and was subjected to our legal system he would probably be sent to jail for not providing the necessities of life to his children - or at the least have his children taken away.

The line "Have faith in that your suffering is good for you" is not something I want to live by. I would never worship a God that says "I love you so I will make you suffer"

0 Replies

@rex b,

So if you smashed you finger with a hammer intentionaly. Was it god that made your suffer or your own fault. You suffered none the less. Difference is you blame God for not stopping you when you had the choice to stop yourself.
When your parents told you not to touch that hot heater vent and you touched it anyway, who's fault was that? Next time you were close to that heater did you remember it may be hot? The only reason you remember it is because you suffered. How you equate him loving you for "I will make you suffer" is beyond me? When have you read it to say that?

0 Replies

@GoodBoy,

Your response is rather simplistic.

How about children with Autism or Cerebral Palsy.
How about children born blind or deaf?
How about a gunman in a random shooting shoots your baby?

Did those children have a choice?

How about the inhabitants around Mt Vesuvius or the inhabitants in the path of a Tsunami? Do they have a choice over what nature brings them? How about a person struck by lightning? How about the people in the WTC on 9/11? Did they have a choice?

Noone complains about the bad choices that they make.
What we don't understand is the crap that is thrown at us in life that we have no control over.

0 Replies

@rex b,

Quote:

Your response is rather simplistic.

Some time you have to break it down to it's simplistic form.

Quote:

How about children with Autism or Cerebral Palsy.

I have a brother with Cerebral Palsy.

Quote:

How about children born blind or deaf?
How about a gunman in a random shooting shoots your baby?

Did those children have a choice?

So who do you blame for there problem? Are you saying God does not love them? Or God is at fault for there condition?

Quote:

How about the inhabitants around Mt Vesuvius or the inhabitants in the path of a Tsunami? Do they have a choice over what nature brings them? How about a person struck by lightning? How about the people in the WTC on 9/11? Did they have a choice?

For some reason you have a large amount of resentment. Must be Gods fault. Why do you blame such and entity when in the same sentence you deny that entity exists? It is illogical to do both?

Quote:

Noone complains about the bad choices that they make.

You have to first admit you made a mistake. TV's full of good example's of our nature to chose the wrong thing.

Quote:

What we don't understand is the crap that is thrown at us in life that we have no control over.

You have more control then your willing to admit. Your probably affraid you might get the blame for it.

1 Reply

@Drnaline,

Drnaline;8507 wrote:

I have a brother with Cerebral Palsy.

So who do you blame for there problem? Are you saying God does not love them? Or God is at fault for there condition?

You have not provided any new concepts to the debate. I guess that is the way that a religious man tries to win a debate - repeat the same thing over and over.

If God is omnipotent and omniscient then he is responsible for all the medical defects that people are born with. God is responsible for your brother's condition. If God loved your brother then he would have done something to prevent your brother from being born that way.

The only other viable scenario is that God is NOT omnipotent and omniscient.

1 Reply

@rex b,

You misunderstood, IMO if he allows these things to happen, it is because they have greater importance then a few years of suffering. What matters is what you learn from the sufferings of life and how you achieve progress through them. If you are born that way, then it is not your FALT, but it is your responsability to take as much out of the experience as possible. Have you ever heard a bible passage that states: "If you love only those who love, what merit have you gained?" Do you understand? If there was only good in the world, how could you become good? What challenge does that pose?

Quote:

Your response is rather simplistic

Have you ever heard of the term Ockham's razor?

0 Replies

@z0z0,

z0z0;8513 wrote:

You have not provided any new concepts to the debate. I guess that is the way that a religious man tries to win a debate - repeat the same thing over and over.

If God is omnipotent and omniscient then he is responsible for all the medical defects that people are born with. God is responsible for your brother's condition. If God loved your brother then he would have done something to prevent your brother from being born that way.

The only other viable scenario is that God is NOT omnipotent and omniscient.

Quote:

You have not provided any new concepts to the debate. I guess that is the way that a religious man tries to win a debate - repeat the same thing over and over.

Do you know how many times i've heard that. Maybe you should think of something new? Just for fun i'll let you know how many times you repeat the same thing ok?

Quote:

If God is omnipotent and omniscient then he is responsible for all the medical defects that people are born with. God is responsible for your brother's condition. If God loved your brother then he would have done something to prevent your brother from being born that way.

Then you tell me, who made my mothers father badger her to the point of almost miscarring Jose' yet to only have him premmy one month latter of five months justation, this was thirtyfive years ago. My dad blames my grandfather for Jose's condition, they have not talked since. Do you think you could explain to him that it is Gods fault, not my grandfathers?

Quote:

The only other viable scenario is that God is NOT omnipotent and omniscient.

And you believe in God but do not believe he is omnipotent? You'll make a great "New Messiah."

1 Reply

@Drnaline,

Drnaline;8521 wrote:

And you believe in God but do not believe he is omnipotent? You'll make a great "New Messiah."

Why would God punish your brother for the mistakes of your grandfather?

If you read my post - you would see that I stated "The only other viable scenario is ...". I posited that as an alternative to continue the debate.

If God is Omnipotent and Omniscient then he knows all threads of reality at once. God would know about everyone' nature be they good or bad. If God knows all this already then what is the point to making us jump through the hoops.

... but what more can we expect form a genocidal God. It makes me laugh - a God that loves his people will wipe all of his creation clean through flood. Would it not be better for God to have spent a bit more time teaching his People about how to better live life? Or did God just push the "Reset Button" like on a video game when you are not doing as well as you had hoped.

I keep bringing examples of the contradictions of the "God" that we are discussing. Please do not reply with the standard "There is a reason for it". Please explain what the reason is.

Once again - if I was God - I would be a much more benevolent God.

1 Reply

@rex b,

Quote:

If God knows all this already then what is the point to making us jump through the hoops.

Where do you see this in the world? All I see are man made hoops.

Quote:

but what more can we expect form a genocidal God. It makes me laugh - a God that loves his people will wipe all of his creation clean through flood. Would it not be better for God to have spent a bit more time teaching his People about how to better live life? Or did God just push the "Reset Button" like on a video game when you are not doing as well as you had hoped.

If you live by Gods ways without inferring in other peoples business I can garentee that you will live a happy life. If there is no meaning as you said, that is the least we can offer ourselves, happiness.

0 Replies

@rex b,

Quote:

Why would God punish your brother for the mistakes of your grandfather?

What you call punishment others call oportunity.

0 Replies

@GoodBoy,

Cerebral Palsy is an "opportunity"?

God is the creator of everything. The hoops are all "God-made" because me made humans to be selfish self-centered individuals. God created cancer. Or is it that God could not get the design right and therefore our bodies are flawed and fall apart or are "lemons" right from the start.

1 Reply

@rex b,

Quote:

Cerebral Palsy is an "opportunity"?

Yes, if not for the person then for those around him.

Quote:

God is the creator of everything. The hoops are all "God-made" because me made humans to be selfish self-centered individuals. God created cancer. Or is it that God could not get the design right and therefore our bodies are flawed and fall apart or are "lemons" right from the start.

You want to have free-will, but still have God controlling everything. It is just as I said before, it's all or nothing, your choice.

1 Reply

@markx15,

markx15;8543 wrote:

Yes, if not for the person then for those around him.

How is your brother's cerebral palsy an opportunity for you?
You lose so many opportunities for life experiences because your brother can't enjoy life. All the energy and resources you expend on him could have been allocated to other opportunities.

That sounds like twisted logic - give your brother an infirmity in order to teach you a lesson.

1 Reply

@rex b,

Quote:

How is your brother's cerebral palsy an opportunity for you?
You lose so many opportunities for life experiences because your brother can't enjoy life. All the energy and resources you expend on him could have been allocated to other opportunities.

That sounds like twisted logic - give your brother an infirmity in order to teach you a lesson.

You seem to assume that everything happens for only one reason. We cannot begin to understand the wide range of possability. There are some lessons that need to be learned, or how else would you know that hitting a hammer against your hand is bad for you.

0 Replies

@z0z0,

z0z0;8527 wrote:

Why would God punish your brother for the mistakes of your grandfather?

If you read my post - you would see that I stated "The only other viable scenario is ...". I posited that as an alternative to continue the debate.

If God is Omnipotent and Omniscient then he knows all threads of reality at once. God would know about everyone' nature be they good or bad. If God knows all this already then what is the point to making us jump through the hoops.

... but what more can we expect form a genocidal God. It makes me laugh - a God that loves his people will wipe all of his creation clean through flood. Would it not be better for God to have spent a bit more time teaching his People about how to better live life? Or did God just push the "Reset Button" like on a video game when you are not doing as well as you had hoped.

I keep bringing examples of the contradictions of the "God" that we are discussing. Please do not reply with the standard "There is a reason for it". Please explain what the reason is.

Once again - if I was God - I would be a much more benevolent God.

Quote:

Why would God punish your brother for the mistakes of your grandfather?

What proof do you have that it was God's hand? Where as the grandfather had the choice to abuse or not abuse. Exercising his free will. Are you saying God (assuming you think there is one) forced the grandfather to abuse on your assumption that he new what the grandfather would do, so God was to fault as well?

Quote:

If God is Omnipotent and Omniscient then he knows all threads of reality at once. God would know about everyone' nature be they good or bad. If God knows all this already then what is the point to making us jump through the hoops.

Knowing and interviening or two different things, strange you would think they are one in the same. He is not making/forcing you to do anything. If you so chose to do it, it is of your own free will. Don't blame him for the **** you fucked up.

Quote:

If God is Omnipotent and Omniscient then he knows all threads of reality at once. God would know about everyone' nature be they good or bad. If God knows all this already then what is the point to making us jump through the hoops.

Teach us a better way "New Messiah!"

Quote:

I keep bringing examples of the contradictions of the "God" that we are discussing. Please do not reply with the standard "There is a reason for it". Please explain what the reason is.

I'll reply with what ever i like, you on the other hand can use your free will and not read my posts!
"Please explain what the reason is."
Why do you keep asking a human for the answer you seek? Don't you think your asking the wrong person? Your issue is with God evidently but instead of seeking the answer within yourself you chose to ask people you don't even know. You finding your answer does not hindge on what you read here. If you want inlightenment ask a high being if you are so inclined to believe in one.

Quote:

Once again - if I was God - I would be a much more benevolent God.

I'm sure you would like to believe that, i would find it very hard to see that. My opinion is based on your attitude in the forum thusfar. Have you been more benevolent to every poster that has made comment to your words? I think not!

0 Replies

@z0z0,

z0z0;8539 wrote:

Cerebral Palsy is an "opportunity"?

God is the creator of everything. The hoops are all "God-made" because me made humans to be selfish self-centered individuals. God created cancer. Or is it that God could not get the design right and therefore our bodies are flawed and fall apart or are "lemons" right from the start.

So if you smoked for twenty years and you got cancer. You would blame God as to opposed to your smoking?

0 Replies

@z0z0,

z0z0;8547 wrote:

How is your brother's cerebral palsy an opportunity for you?
You lose so many opportunities for life experiences because your brother can't enjoy life. All the energy and resources you expend on him could have been allocated to other opportunities.

That sounds like twisted logic - give your brother an infirmity in order to teach you a lesson.

It's not Marks brother, he is my brother.

Quote:

You lose so many opportunities for life experiences because your brother can't enjoy life. All the energy and resources you expend on him could have been allocated to other opportunities.

Are you saying my brother does not deserve to live? Our efforts are waisted on him? You being more benevolent would of taken his life? Or not allowed him to live in the first place??

Quote:

That sounds like twisted logic - give your brother an infirmity in order to teach you a lesson.

His infirmity has taught us all a lesson. I think you'd not have the ball to tell him he has no right to live.

0 Replies

@GoodBoy,

Why did God make cigarettes cancerous?

Why did God not give your brother a fair chance in life? It was your grandfather that screwed up.

If I was God then cerebral palsy would not exist.

My comments are not about God alone but in people's perceptions and "love" for God. I have not even stated that I believe that God exists. The closest that I came to stating that God exists is that the Universe could be defined as God but that God is not the humanistic deity that people worship. I was trying to draw light on the contradictions and the weaknesses of "God".

1 Reply

@rex b,

Quote:

Why did God make cigarettes cancerous?

Why did God not give your brother a fair chance in life? It was your grandfather that screwed up.

If I was God then cerebral palsy would not exist.

Do you think he consciencly created cancer to torment humanity? Cancer in many cases does not happen by accident, that is at least one lesson learned. We abuse ourselves and our surrondings that we literaly strangle the enviroment. God created the laws of nature, and let things run its course, quite freely I might add.

0 Replies

Wouldn't Hell be the Heaven for "Wrong Do'ers"?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know