Wouldn't Hell be the Heaven for "Wrong Do'ers"?

@Curmudgeon,

Curmudgeon;8305 wrote:

" Would not the Muslim faith recognize another idea of heaven ? ( I don't know the answer , I am curious )

More than a Garden; Submitters Perspective August 1996 English - Submission.org

@pelitsnake,

pelitsnake;8316 wrote:

Hello,
Could you please make your first 2 questions clearer so i can do as much as i can to answer them.
but the third one is: It is one of the major sins killing a non-Muslim when he is a mu’aahid (one of those who have a peace treaty with the Muslims)

“The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever kills a mu’aahid will not smell the fragrance of Paradise, even though its fragrance may detected from a distance of forty days.’”

But with regard to non-Muslims who are at war with the Muslims and do not have a peace treaty with the Muslims or are not living under Muslim rule, then Muslims are commanded to kill them.

I hope that has answered the 3rd question.
thanks for your time.
P.s. could you make the other 2 clearer.
thanks :peace:

You stated

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At one time judaism was the correct religion etc.

I take this statement that you even thought it correct. My question is what changed it from being "the correct religion?"

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Muhammed ( s.a.w) was the last messenger, and there will be no more messengers after him,

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"There is no but Allah"
and Muhammed is his messenger"

My reference was to getting to heaven you are required to say the last quote. but earlier in the post you also said there were messengers before and will be more after. Why is only Muhammed the only one included to gain access to heaven?

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But with regard to non-Muslims who are at war with the Muslims and do not have a peace treaty with the Muslims or are not living under Muslim rule, then Muslims are commanded to kill them.

So by your answer, i take it you think terrorists/extreme Muslims are not evil doers? Am i considered at war with the Muslims? If this country we under Muslim rule would i be exempt?

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@Drnaline,

Drnaline;8343 wrote:

You stated

I take this statement that you even thought it correct. My question is what changed it from being "the correct religion?"

My reference was to getting to heaven you are required to say the last quote. but earlier in the post you also said there were messengers before and will be more after. Why is only Muhammed the only one included to gain access to heaven?

So by your answer, i take it you think terrorists/extreme Muslims are not evil doers? Am i considered at war with the Muslims? If this country we under Muslim rule would i be exempt?

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I think you misunderstood my answer. As i said terrorism is not allowed in Islam but what is allowed is to defend your self or go to war with the soldiers and not the civilians.
I don't know what you mean by exempt, do you mean excused or isolated

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@pelitsnake,

pelitsnake;8297 wrote:

[SIZE="5"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="1"]Hi, just to answer your question. Islam has not always been around, and you would ask that if only Muslims will go to heaven/ junnah what about the rest of the people before Islam. Well here is how it is. From the day of Adam and Eve the message of Allah/god has been passed down and they all get a fair chance because at the time that is the true religion, like Ibrahim's/Abraham's time etc. and in total all has sent down over 120,000 messengers Notable messengers include Adam/Ahdum (allay salaam), Noah/Nooh( allay salaam), Abraham Ibrahim(allay salaam), Moses/Musa(allay salaam), Jesus/Esa(allay salaam), and Muhammad(S.A.W) ,
Basicly for every nation. At one time judaism was the correct religion etc.
Muhammed ( s.a.w) was the last messenger, and there will be no more messengers after him, And he was apointed with Islam ( we believe, the current true faith) and the Quran. (Muslims believe. Allah says that the Torah and the bible were changed and people use to take out the hard to follow bit and leave the good bits/changes it ).
All that being said and done you still want to know whether other faiths will go to heaven/jinnah. You can not go to the gates of paradise unless you have testified(shahada): La illlaha illallah "There is no but Allah" Muhammed dur rasululullah "and Muhammed is his messenger" in other words become a Muslim. ( i m talking a bout the current time). And even then it is extremely hard to get in to. Out of a 1000 people 1 will go to heaven and the 999 will go to hell.(including Muslims) But we also believe that even though a lot of Muslims will go to hell( because of their bad deeds/sins) at some stage they will get out. but Hell is an extremely bad place and that 1 day in hell lasts more than a year.

thank you for reading. i hope this has answered your question and i hope no one got offended.
if you would like to ask any further questions you are welcome:peace: [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE]

well i done some research and this is what i came up with:
Most non-Muslims would say that according to Islam the answer is yes. Many Muslims would say so as well. But the correct answer is not necessarily.

According to actual Islamic teachings, a person who has been given a true and complete understanding of the basics of Islam and knowingly rejects it, then dies without repenting, is destined for hell.

But a person who has not received a true and complete understanding of the basics of Islam will be tested on Judgment Day. If they disobey God and fail the test, then they will go on to hell. On the other hand, if they obey God and pass the test, they will enter Paradise.

Notice the phrase "true and complete understanding of the basics". This applies not only to people who lived before the coming of Islam and people who have never heard of it at all, but also to people who may have heard about it but what they learned was not correct or was not enough information for them to understand the basis of the religion or to make a proper judgment of it.

Those who have faith in God will be rewarded, even if they didn't convert to Islam, as long the reason they didn't convert is that they never received a true and complete understanding of the basics of Islam, and as long as they obeyed what did come to them from God.

This is the meaning of the following passage from the Quran:

Surely those who have faith and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabaeans - whoever has faith in God and the Last Day and does good deeds - indeed their reward is with their Lord and they will neither fear nor grieve
This is Surah al-Baqarat verse 62, and Surah al-Ma'ida verse 69 is nearly identical in wording.

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@rex b,

Well , I see from that that I will get to heaven after all !

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@Curmudgeon,

Curmudgeon;8431 wrote:

Well , I see from that that I will get to heaven after all !

LOL!. Only God knows if you and i will go Heaven. ( do you agree?)

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@rex b,

Yes , but my faith is strong that I will make it , despite being told by some Muslims that I won't without converting .

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@Curmudgeon,

Curmudgeon;8433 wrote:

Yes , but my faith is strong that I will make it , despite being told by some Muslims that I won't without converting .

Are you one of them people that never give up what they believe in?
So am I

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@rex b,

YOu can count me in on that one too.

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@al islam,

al_islam;4456 wrote:

lemme tell you the Muslim perspective..

God has created 3 intelligent life forms that we know about:

Humans- inhabitants of Earth, who have freewill to choose right and wrong.
Jinns- inhabitants of a different dimension who cannot be seen by humans who also have freewill
Angel- inhabitants of paradise who do not have freewill

Why would Angels - inhabitants of Paradise NOT have free will?
Are they Zombies on God/Allah's puppet strings?

That concept really sucks.

If I go to Heaven - can I smoke a doob or enjoy some really nice single malt scotch in excess?

I really don't like the whole concept of Heaven or Hell with Heaven as a reward for those that obey God. God sounds like a parent using Christmas presents as a bribe for good behavior. How is a person allowed to live a full life enjoying free will if one of God's fundamental rules is to "Do What I Command" which means that we have no free will.

1 Reply

@z0z0,

z0z0;8461 wrote:

Why would Angels - inhabitants of Paradise NOT have free will?
Are they Zombies on God/Allah's puppet strings?

That concept really sucks.

If I go to Heaven - can I smoke a doob or enjoy some really nice single malt scotch in excess?

I really don't like the whole concept of Heaven or Hell with Heaven as a reward for those that obey God. God sounds like a parent using Christmas presents as a bribe for good behavior. How is a person allowed to live a full life enjoying free will if one of God's fundamental rules is to "Do What I Command" which means that we have no free will.

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Why would Angels - inhabitants of Paradise NOT have free will?

Because they are under direct order of God. Sorta like being in the military.

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Are they Zombies on God/Allah's puppet strings?

They would be like soldiers doing your biding. Zombies nor puppets have a soul.

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That concept really sucks.

Don't sign on the dotted line or be born for the task.

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If I go to Heaven - can I smoke a doob or enjoy some really nice single malt scotch in excess?

I suppose that depends on how good you were.

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I really don't like the whole concept of Heaven or Hell with Heaven as a reward for those that obey God. God sounds like a parent using Christmas presents as a bribe for good behavior.

It shapes the person you are today. Whether it's the good book or your parents teaching you right from wrong.

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How is a person allowed to live a full life enjoying free will if one of God's fundamental rules is to "Do What I Command" which means that we have no free will.

You are allowed the choice. Your decision is free will. If you are wrong chances are you'll pay for your mistake. The plight of the matters is will you own up to your mistake? If you are right, you have satifaction for making the right choice. Enjoyment in freewill comes from making those decisions correctly. Thats my opinion.

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@pelitsnake,

So the way to get into Heaven is to give up Free Will?

Under Christianity - the "Original Sin" = Eating the Apple was the first act of "Free Will".
So Free Will is evil?

I don't like that concept at all.
Does not sound like a construct of a benevolent God.

If I was God I surely would not create such a construct.
All that should matter is that people live "Good Lives" and not that they blindly believe in me.

1 Reply

@z0z0,

z0z0;8473 wrote:

So the way to get into Heaven is to give up Free Will?

Under Christianity - the "Original Sin" = Eating the Apple was the first act of "Free Will".
So Free Will is evil?

I don't like that concept at all.
Does not sound like a construct of a benevolent God.

If I was God I surely would not create such a construct.
All that should matter is that people live "Good Lives" and not that they blindly believe in me.

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So the way to get into Heaven is to give up Free Will?

No. The way in is how you use it.

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Under Christianity - the "Original Sin" = Eating the Apple was the first act of "Free Will".
So Free Will is evil?

Freewill can be evil. Again it is in how you use it.
Example: You see a lady having car trouble or a flat and it's raining. You see she could use some help. Your decision is to keep driving or render her aid. The chivilrous thing to do would be to help. The easy decision it to keep driving and stay dry. Which would you do? You will be posed a million times in with decisions like these in your life time. That measure of how you decided those things is what will be judged, IMO.

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I don't like that concept at all.
Does not sound like a construct of a benevolent God.

I don't think he asked if any one liked it. But that is the say it is.

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If I was God I surely would not create such a construct.

Of course not, most people are inclined to make it easy for themselves.

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All that should matter is that people live "Good Lives" and not that they blindly believe in me.

Blindly? There is very much intent. Blind is your guidance without him. If you already followed him you wouldn't be asking the questions that you have but you have to start somewhere.

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@pelitsnake,

If I was God and I was Omniscient and Omnipotent then it would cost me nothing to make the universe a better place.

If I saw a child on the street that was crippled and I was omnipotent (it costs me nothing to cure the child) I would cure the child. Curing the child would be the right thing / good thing to do. Not curing the child would be evil.

Following your metaphor, God is in his car and he decides to keep on driving without helping out. I would posit that God therefore is a nasty God. God tells us to be charitable towards our fellow men yet he is not charitable towards us. He has the power to make the world a better place but he chooses not to. Why is that?

If God was omniscient and omnipotent then why would he create flawed beings such as us? Why would he then want to test us to see if we are worthy of his love and acceptance into Heaven? God sounds like a grade 3 student with an ant-farm.

God therefore does not deserve my worship.

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@rex b,

God gives people free will to live our lives the way we want..even with his followers.

There are consequences for sin. Some of those consequences result in Children and others going hungry and getting hurt etc.

What happens to the child that gets everything it wants? It becomes spoiled and selfish and unable to cope with life. God never said life was going to be fair. He never promised us we would get everything we wanted.

God does not need your Worship. He wants it. Those who know God and live for him want to worship him because they know who he really is and what he's capable of. They know he is love.

God does promise us that he wants to give his children good gifts;

Luke 11:10-13 (New International Version)

10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

11 "Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

What I know is that he gives me peace, because I ask him. God wants to bless you.

Many people feel like thay have been wronged by God in some manner and they hold it against him. I was one of those at one time. I lost 4 immediate family members from an accident and I held it against him for many years. I finally figured out all he wanted to do was help me and love me.. but I wouldnt let him.
Anger at God will do you no good, ever. You can be angry all you want and it will never be a help in time of need.

People are evil. They do what they want when they want like a spoiled child. When they can't have what they want they pout and scream and stomp thier feet. Everyone does it, I have. I didnt win though.

General Question for anyone:
Do you feel that God has hurt you? How has he disappointed you personally? Why did you feel it was his fault?

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@pelitsnake,

If I saw someone suffer and did not help them then that would be evil. If God sees us all suffer and does nothing to help then is that evil?

If I had a pet dog and it was sick, would I take it to the vet to seek a cure? Yes. If God sees us sick then why does he not help to heal us? God is omnipotent so it does not cost him anything to help. Why does he not help?

If I thought that a city was evil and I decided to destroy the city and kill all the people I would be considered evil. If God does the same thing then why is he not evil?

If I make someone suffer then I am considered a sadist yet God watches us suffer so why is he not a sadist? Why does God give different men different messages and then allow us to kill one another in his name?

All this assumes that God created Man.
What if the truth is that Man created God?

These are ideas that come from free thought rather than absolving myself of free thought and blindly parroting some "Holy Book"? If you find peace by absolving yourself of reason then good for you. If the Holy Book is a work of God then why is there so much contradiction in it? Old Testament vs New Testament.

One could come to the conclusion that God is one "sick dude." I would recommend that if God exists that he go see a psychiatrist.

1 Reply

@z0z0,

z0z0;8477 wrote:

If I saw someone suffer and did not help them then that would be evil. If God sees us all suffer and does nothing to help then is that evil?

its all a test by God. He makes some harder and some easier. And at the day of judgement if your life was hard eg. you were very poor then would wouldn't be asked as many questions as the wealthy people, they have more of a responsibility to donate help others because God has made them capable.

z0z0;8477 wrote:

If I had a pet dog and it was sick, would I take it to the vet to seek a cure? Yes. If God sees us sick then why does he not help to heal us? God is omnipotent so it does not cost him anything to help. Why does he not help?

Well thats not true if you think about it at the end of every illness you either get cured or die. If you get cured God has played an indirect part in curing you. And what about all of the people who were cured and in their case it was scientifically impossible to cure them? As for when people die, It's an excuse for your death and it was your Fiat. people die in lots of different ways.

And to sum up it belief that drives people to believe in God the creator of earth ( which is so complex that is could not have been an accident)
The first thing you need is belief. No matter how dumb/smart you are if you don't have belief you don't have anything. if it wasn't for belief science would not have ascended etc. eg. if you have belief that the bus is going to come that's why you sit at the bus stop.
So belief is a strong part of a religion. And without it you wouldn't be any where. And of course you have to have some facts for the belief to start. Don't you think that the universe is a fact provided by God?

thaks for your time :cool:
i hope i didn't offend any one

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@rex b,

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If I had a pet dog and it was sick, would I take it to the vet to seek a cure? Yes. If God sees us sick then why does he not help to heal us? God is omnipotent so it does not cost him anything to help. Why does he not help?

If I came into your house and threw out your cigarettes, any non-organic and not healthy food, and said that you would from that day forward exercise in a manner which I would choose and whenever I want, would you like it? It's good for you, you'll be in the best shape of your life and probably live longer because of it, isn't that what you want? No? You see its your choice not his, all or nothing so what will it be?

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If I make someone suffer then I am considered a sadist yet God watches us suffer so why is he not a sadist? Why does God give different men different messages and then allow us to kill one another in his name?

First you want him to help, but you negate the clues hes left for us. Almost no religions are completly false, at least no long lasting religion, they all have a foundation in correct principals, but they were distorted by choice, someone's if not your own to make the pieces fit. That's were the controversy and war come from, not misinformation, but misinterpretation.

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If I thought that a city was evil and I decided to destroy the city and kill all the people I would be considered evil. If God does the same thing then why is he not evil?

What is this short life compared to eternity, so what if you die young, look around at the ****hole we live in, are they really missing that much? If you make a model house that didnt turn out right why wouldn't you tear it down and make another?

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Following your metaphor, God is in his car and he decides to keep on driving without helping out. I would posit that God therefore is a nasty God. God tells us to be charitable towards our fellow men yet he is not charitable towards us. He has the power to make the world a better place but he chooses not to. Why is that?

If he did that what merit would we have when things get better? For example if you inherit a fortune or if you build it up through hard work, which is dignified? To which do you have greater claim? What merit would you have for being good if its the easy way out?

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@pelitsnake,

If God is omnipotent and omniscient then what is the point to creating imperfect beings to worship you? What is the point to testing these imperfect beings? What does God get out of this? Why not just create perfect beings that will do your bidding?

The only reason I can see is that "God" would get some sort of sick kick out of watching us suffer or some "God-Complex" by giving us rewards. Either way God is a psychologically sick person.

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@rex b,

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If God is omnipotent and omniscient then what is the point to creating imperfect beings to worship you? What is the point to testing these imperfect beings? What does God get out of this? Why not just create perfect beings that will do your bidding?

You expect to have choice, but you think he doesn't? His reason I can't imagine though many consider his love for us as the answear.

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The only reason I can see is that "God" would get some sort of sick kick out of watching us suffer or some "God-Complex" by giving us rewards. Either way God is a psychologically sick person.

That is if you consider the eventualities of life as suffering. And what rewards does he give us?

1 Reply

Wouldn't Hell be the Heaven for "Wrong Do'ers"?

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